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Crime, and from the operating agencies of the Department of Health, Education, and Welfare, especially the National Institute of Mental Health, the Children's Bureau, and the Office of Education. An amount of $50,000 will be needed during the next fiscal year to allow these training teams to conduct two workshops in each of the last 6 months.

The Secretary is also authorized to make special studies and to disseminate information on delinquency prevention and control. Local communities throughout the country need up-to-date information on effective programs of prevention and correction. Special studies are needed to develop descriptive accounts and surveys of the best programs in the country that deal with the school, employment, or welfare needs of delinquent youth. Private national organizations, such as the National Education Association, the National Council on Crime and Delinquency, the National Committee on Youth Employment, etc., possess regional staff resources for making such surveys and evaluations of promising current programs of prevention and correction. During fiscal year 1962, it is estimated that four studies of this type may be undertaken at an approximate cost of $45,000 each. The results of such program surveys will be disseminated to local communities to aid their developmental work.

Dr. Ohlin, the Special Assistant to the Secretary for Delinquency, is here with me and we will be happy to answer any questions you have.

GENERAL STATEMENT

Mr. COHEN. I would like to say this, Senator. I think this delinquency bill is a very important piece of legislation. Under your leadership it passed the Senate three times, as you know. We have been working on this piece of legislation for 8 years, and it just passed this time. I hope when the President signs it on Friday it will be implemented very quickly, because it is indeed an extremely important piece of legislation.

I would like to say this, too, as we close these hearings today. Secretary Ribicoff has asked me to express to you his deep appreciation not only for what you have done in getting this bill passed, but for the other welfare bills that you were able to steer through the Labor and Public Welfare Committee. These really represent a very remarkable achievement for this year.

For example, the community health facilities bill that you helped pass is an outstanding piece of legislation. When you also look at the juvenile delinquency bill, the recent bills on training of teachers for the deaf, Freedmen's Hospital, the three education bills, and the Assistant Secretary bill, it is a remarkable legislative achievement. We believe that these really vitally affect the health, welfare, and education of all people in the Nation.

Senator HILL. Well, I will say this: That no department could have been more cooperative than the Department of Health, Education, and Welfare. You gentlemen have certainly been most cooperative and helpful in every way.

Mr. COHEN. Well, Senator, we appreciate your cooperation also; because, as you know, the bills, like the Freedmen's Hospital and the juvenile delinquency bill and some of these others, have been here pending for a number of years.

Senator HILL. Quite a while.

Mr. COHEN. Actually, Senator, along with the appropriation bills and the other bills on water pollution and educational TV and the Assistant Secretary bills that have been handled here, this has indeed been a very, very heavy legislative session, and the Secretary has asked me to express thanks to you for the leadership that you have shown

and the help that you have given to the Department and particularly to the people of the entire country in all of these areas.

Senator HILL. You advise the Secretary that I very much appreciate his very kind and generous words, and we will continue to cooperate and go forward together for the welfare of our people and our country.

Mr. COHEN. He recognizes that some of these bills have provided some difficult moments, but he looks forward, too, to next year when some of those that did not get passed, will get passed, as I know you do also.

In these series of bills the juvenile delinquency bill represents one that has had a very high priority from the Secretary's point of view. Having been Governor of a State, he is aware that one of the most pressing problems is this juvenile delinquency problem. It threatens the welfare of many families and many people. He intends to personally exercise a considerable degree of leadership and responsibility for this program and is delighted that finally, after these 8 years of efforts, it has been passed.

AMOUNT REQUESTED

And the request, as you see here, is for $8,200,000 to implement this. Now, as you may recollect, the bill that you accepted, basically the House-passed version, is only a 3-year bill. The idea is, I gather, for this program to prove itself in actual operation in various communities as soon as possible and I think we can do this.

A very great problem is presented here because we are really asking, in the $8,200,000, for the grants and contracts for demonstration and evaluation projects with a full funding provision in view of the shortness of the 3-year authority. If we cannot go into these communities and fully fund these projects, we will not be able to get the cooperation of these communities. They will have no assurance that we are going to continue and some of them may take 4 or 5 years.

ALLOCATION OF FUNDS

We have allocated $4 million for the demonstration and evaluation projects, $3,600,000 for the training of personnel, and $600,000 for the technical assistance. Those are the three components in this legislation. We would like to start in each one of these three fields.

ects.

But the real essence of this problem, of course, is this $4 million for the demonstration and evaluation projects. And we are going to try here, Senator, what is a somewhat different approach in these projects than has been tried in other demonstration and evaluation projAs you know, you have given money over many years to the National Institutes of Health and to other groups for what we would call basic research. We made long steps in these last 5 years. But now what we need to do is to get into some communities and take all of this knowledge, all together, and make a massive attack on the problem to see whether we can use all of this knowledge, that the National Institute of Mental Health, the Office of Education, all of these units, have devised, and see if it will work.

Now, maybe it will not. I do not want to come here and say, "If you give this money in 5 or 10 years, you are going to eradicate juvenile delinquency." That we know will not happen.

But our idea behind this is that if we can find some method of combining all of this new knowledge and putting it into effect in a few communities, we will have found some formula of operation that other communities can follow. And all I would say to you is: I think this money is an investment. It is an investment just as you put it in the National Institutes of Health. Some things will not work. But sometimes when you learn that something does not work, you have pushed your knowledge in a new direction.

So what we are really asking you for in the first year is the $4 million for the demonstration and evaluation projects on a full funding basis in order to get started, in addition to the $4,200,000 for the other purposes already stated.

We have brought some new people into this field. Dr. Ohlin, here, is one of the outstanding experts in the United States. In the field of aging, we have searched all over to get Dr. Kent. We are trying to get the best people in all of these fields. I think we can really do a job on this, and we are very anxious to get started. We would implement this in connection with the President's Committee on Delinquency, which has three Cabinet officers on it.

We are anxious to get going and show how all of this knowledge and information that has been built up can now be put to use practically in localiteis that will be of interest to all communities.

And so this $8,200,000 that we are asking for we think is a really good investment. I know you feel strongly yourself that it is a program we probably should have enacted a long time ago, but now we went to get started and do it.

Senator HILL. You certainly feel we ought to make the full amount of $8,200,000 available at this time, if you are going to at this time start a really constructive program.

FUNDS AUTHORIZED

Mr. COHEN. The authorization in the legislation is $10 million; and recognizing that we are a quarter off and that we have got to get started, we are asking for the $8,200,000.

Personally, I think that probably a lot more money eventually has to be put into this. But we wanted to start cautiously in the bill. And we only ask for the $10 million for each of these 3 years of the authorization.

I think in terms of the work that Dr. Ohlin and our staff have done, the $8,200,000 is a sound investment. With the full funding, if you could see your way clear to give the full funding, we could then go to these localities and say, "Look, if you start this and put your money in and put your staff in, and we put our money in, you can have this project"-it might take 3 or 4 years. You cannot do this overnight. It means the cooperation of the welfare agencies, the police, the voluntary agencies, schools, Health, Education, and Welfare, school superintendents, everyone, if we are going to make this a new massive attack that assembles all of this knowledge, all of the people in the community, and does not fragmentize our approach.

I think the conclusion of Dr. Ohlin, the Secretary's conclusion and mine is that the new approach is against fragmentizing our knowledge, but to assemble it all and focus it on the community.

Senator HILL. Well, you have made a good statement, certainly, Mr. Secretary, and we appreciate it very, very much.

Speaking for myself, I will do my best to get you the full $8,200,000. If we get it in the Senate, I hope you will be sure and contact the House conferees. Sometimes we have more trouble in a conference committee than we do in the regular committees.

TWO MAJOR PROPOSALS

Mr. COHEN. Senator, these two proposals before you today, you might say, are at the ends of the population spectrum. The juveniles, the youth program that we have here, and the aging program, we think are the two really new things that we have been able to develop in these last 8 months.

In other words, we have tried very hard to reexamine what is being done in this country for youth and what is being done for the older people. Along with what Dr. Kent and Dr. Ohlin are developing here, I really feel we have got something that is worthy of your support.

Senator HILL. You certainly have my support. I can assure you of that. And I hope we can come out with the $8,200,000.

Mr. COHEN. We appreciate your support, Senator. Thank you very much.

Senator HILL. Thank you, very much, Mr. Secretary.

EDUCATION OF THE BLIND

STATEMENT OF JAMES F. KELLY, DEPARTMENT BUDGET OFFICER

ADDITIONAL AUTHORIZATION FOR FUNDS

Senator HILL. Mr. Kelly, will you come up to the witness stand, please, sir?

Mr. Kelly, the Department of HEW favorably recommended the bill to give an additional authorization for appropriation for the education of the blind. Have you calculated what additional amount should be appropriated for fiscal 1962, based on the legislative history? Mr. KELLY. Yes, I have, Mr. Chairman.

I might say that the reason that we did not recommend an estimate was because when we put together the supplemental estimates based on the enactment of legislation, that one had not progressed far enough to warrant its submission.

Senator HILL. To be fair about it, that bill did not pass until yesterday. Is that not correct?

AMOUNT REQUESTED

Mr. KELLY. That is correct. But we did make a calculation which would indicate that if we were going to provide $40 per student, which is a figure that we arrived at, based on the concept that this is the additional cost of the books and materials for a blind student over those required for a sighted student. This can also be arrived at in another way and has by the American Printing House. 1956, the per capita cost that was being provided was $31.12 and if

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you bring that up to current prices, it would be approximately $40. That would require an additional $229,000.

Then we have estimated a need for an additional $41,000 for a new item in the legislation, to allow the American Printing House to employ consultants and technicians and advisory committees in connection with their work. Our long-term thinking is that that would be about $75,000 a year.

In the first year we would assume it would be about $41,000, which would give us a total estimate of $270,000.

Senator HILL. Well, we certainly appreciate this testimony very, very much. Thank you, sir.

(Whereupon, at 5:55 p.m., Tuesday, September 19, 1961, the committee recessed, to reconvene at 2 p.m., Wednesday, September 20, 1961.)

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