So I feel those two functions are new, have not been done before. In the construction end of it, I think the responsibilities were very much the same as mine are.

I think the two charters under which we operate are quite similar, but I feel that we have a somewhat broader approach to the problem. And obviously I cannot criticize the Director of Installations, because he only operated for less than a year. I think a great deal of work was done along the line we hope to carry on.

I

I do feel we are surrounding ourselves with better type of men. know nothing can be accomplished unless you do get the right type of men around you. We have had some difficulty because of civil service restrictions in replacing some of those men, but I think we have gone a long way already. I think we are going to build up an excellent organization for the overall long run which will accomplish the objectives I am determined to accomplish and, I believe, the things you gentlemen would like to see done.

Mr. DAVIS. The old Director of Installations did not have any supervision over maintenance at all; did he?

Mr. FLOATE. Well, they never did anything about it. I do not believe it was mentioned in the charter for some reason or other.

Admiral JELLEY. I think the big difference in the two jobs is that the Director of Installations was a sort of a special assistant to the Secretary of Defense that had been set up as a result of an appropriation act and his standing was never well defined. I mean the Secretary of the Navy or the Secretary of the Army could not quite see what his responsibilities and duties were; whereas now with the reorganization plan and the Assistant Secretaries of Defense, they understand actually what the authority and responsibilities of the Assistant Secretaries of Defense are. So it puts Mr. Floete in a much better position than Mr. Creedon was. The services know just what his rights, responsibilities, and duties and so forth are.

Mr. DAVIS. This subcommittee had great respect for Mr. Creedon. We could not help but feel he did not have as free a hand as he needed to have in order to accomplish this job, and we certainly hope your position will give you that freedom in order to help us to do the job we have to do.

Mr. FLOETE. With that goes more responsibility. I understand that, and I hope to discharge it.

Mr. DAVIS. We are certainly going to wish you well in doing it. We need you.

LONG-RANGE PLANNING PROGRAM

Admiral JELLEY. One thing we are faced with is that we see many things that are desirable on a long-range basis and the kind of procedures that we should have. Unfortunately, for the interim, we have to adopt something else. Just like this 1954 budget, we would like to have had a couple of months and had hearings, but that was done by Mr. Creedon last spring, and we felt a quick review would be suitable. But long range, we want to give a complete treatment in subsequent programs.

If we could get back to what was frequently done pre-Korea and pre-World War II of having the authorization a year before we got the appropriation, that would permit the services to go to the Armed Services Committee on rather sketchy engineering cost information and get the authorization, then make detailed engineering studies,

perhaps to the point of actual working drawings, before they came to the Appropriations Committee.

That, however, means that the planning system has to be in darned good shape, because in planning new construction you should be planning a year or 2 or 3 years ahead.

I feel, as a result of my experience, we should have several programs in the mill. I think we should have some kind of a public-works relief program so that, in case they want to prime the pump, we would have some good, sound projects that could be brought up immediately.

In addition to that, I think we should have some kind of mobilization construction program on the shelf in some detail so that we won't be rushing around the way we did after the outbreak in Korea and developing programs in a hurry. Unfortunately, we cannot do that immediately but have to have something in between. We do hope as a result of proper planning to have some kind of a workable system. My experience in the service indicates the necessity of having these things planned in advance in some detail.

Mr. FLOETE. We ought to know what the permanent Military Establishment is going to be. I think the Army and Navy are pretty well along; I do not think the Air Force is any place along on it. It seems to me that the fundamental trouble with all of this is lack of planning. We have given serious consideration to that. In fact, we got out a directive all ready to sign, and then we backed up because they told us it was not time. The idea was good, but the timing was wrong; maybe it would be all right 3 months from now or 6 months from now. I think we have to know that in some way. We cannot go fiddling around here the way we are.

ORGANIZATION OF PROPERTIES AND INSTALLATIONS DEPARTMENT

Mr. HAND. I am not certain of the plan you developed to subdivide your responsibilities into various sections. For example, Admiral Jelley was discussing the Technical Division. Would you mind repeating the outline of your whole Department?

Mr. FLOETE. It falls into these three Divisions: Real Estate Management, which is concerned with the acquisition, disposal, and proper utilization of all real estate-family housing, industrial property both at the national and departmental levels. That is a broad outline of the Real Estate Property Management Branch that Mr. Beynon is the head of.

The second one is the Maintenance Division which will cover the maintenance of all these thousands and thousands of properties in all of these installations that we own which, as I told you, would exceed $1 billion, I am certain, although it is so mixed up that it is pretty hard to get the figures yet. That Division is not manned, but will be, I hope, starting today.

The third Division is the Construction Division of which Admiral Jelley is the head, and he has divided that particular Division into three sections.

Mr. HAND. If I may ask Admiral Jelley right there your three sections are the planning and technical divisions and analysis? Admiral JELLEY. Yes.

Mr. HAND. In your Planning Division, are you duplicating any of the actual planning work done by the Corps of Engineers?

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Admiral JELLEY. No. We are first starting to study their systems, which will be a factual survey of the actual operation. We want to find out, for example, something about the Navy Shore Station Development Board. We want to see how many projects come in and how many are approved. We want to find out what is the experience of the Army, whether it is approving 50 percent of the projects or 10 percent, and what is the situation in the Air Force. And we are doing this review now.

Mr. HAND. You are making an overall study of the Planning Divisions of the respective services?

Admiral JELLEY. That is right. As of today, I do not know the answer-what should be the guidelines for a balanced program or an integrated program covering each of the services. We won't get into whether the Navy should have destroyers, submarines, or things like that, but what should be the guidelines on what a balanced program consists of.

They will get into things like our mobilization plan; is it in good shape; is it being handled any better than heretofore-not the individual projects but the system.

Mr. HAND. You are not studying individual programs but are studying the systems used by the respective services?

Admiral JELLEY. Yes. We are going to hold our Division down to 3 people 2 people and the head of the Planning Division.

Mr. FLOETE. What we hope to arrive at out of that is to provide a planning system.

Mr. HAND. I understand.

Mr. FLOETE. The need of it is obvious.

Mr. HAND. What is the function and what is the projected size of your Division of Analysis?

Admiral JELLEY. The Division of Analysis are the ones who are actually getting the details of the individual construction projects, basically consisting of four men-the head of the Division and an Army, Navy, and Air Force man. Temporarily we have assigned 3 more men to that Division; so it is comprised at present of 7 engineers with some typists, and so forth.

Mr. HAND. That is in order to catch up?

Admiral JELLEY. Yes. It may be we will get along permanently with 1 Army and 1 Navy man and 2 from the Air Force. And we also expect to switch people over from the technical staff to help out when we hit a peak load, which this year is from the middle of November to the middle of January. We will move them back and forth.

Mr. HAND. Explain the difference in the functions between that Division and the Technical Division.

Mr. FLOETE. May I interrupt just to say this Analysis Division will report first to Admiral Jelley, but in the end to me. I mean they won't make the decision about any of these things. I suppose in the last analysis, it falls on me. But they will come up with their recommendations and the necessary facts in their presentation, and then we have to decide. We do not pass the buck to them.

Admiral JELLEY. The Technical Division will work on uniform criteria and standard designs and standards of construction. For instance, they will handle problems like the barracks that this committee worked on.

Mr. HAND. And warehouses?

Admiral JELLEY. And warehouses.

Mr. HAND. And have conform as nearly as possible the plans for a hospital for the Army to a hospital for the Navy, and so forth? Admiral JELLEY. Exactly, so that a 500-bed Army hospital would have the same number of square feet as a 500-bed Navy hospital.

Mr. HAND. I think that answers my question satisfactorily. Admiral JELLEY. We will probably wind up with 4 or 5 or 6 people in that Division. We expect to use outside consultants-some of the distinguished professors, for example, who would come with us for a month in the summertime to work on some sort of standard, or call in an engineering firm to make a survey. Anything that is not controversial we hope to have Army engineers or Yards and Docks determine, but anything that is controversial we want to get estimates from the outside, if possible. For example, I have arranged for a consultant to study and give special detailed advice on fueling systems for the Navy and Air Force which are of all types and varying costs. Mr. FLOETE. We have actually deferred some of those in this new program.

Admiral JELLEY. In 3 months I hope that I can come up and give the committee a report and recommendations.

WORKING FORCE

Mr. HAND. How many people do you suppose will constitute your working force?

Mr. FLOETE. Fifty to fifty-five. That includes stenographers. I hope to keep it on a staff level. If we got into operation, of course, it would have to be much more than that. We are going to get enough into operations to check some things. We are not just going to sit in an ivory tower over there. I am starting to get out now to go to these installations and we hope eventually to do a good deal of that.

COMPARATIVE FAMILY HOUSING

Mr. HAND. In your program of family housing, are you aware of any other military organization elsewhere that has that problem? Mr. FLOETE. I know that Canada has that problem in France. I do not think I quite get the import of your question.

Mr. HAND. I am wondering whether other military organizationsRussia, for example, the English, for example-do have to make comparable provision for family housing as the United States does. Admiral JELLEY. I can tell you about the British Navy. (Discussion off the record.)

Mr. CEDERBERG. I just want to say that from what I have heard this morning it appears we are taking steps in the right direction so far as this military construction problem is concerned.

The information that I have received is enlightening to me and I only hope that the office, Mr. Secretary, that you have will be delegated sufficient authority to make your decisions stick so far as the services are concerned.

I think that is vitally important because when you get into the various services, whether it be the Army, Navy, or Air Force, necessarily and naturally when you are dealing with a program of this magnitude you are going to have conflicting opinions as to the type

of construction, and so forth. If you are going to standardize, it is going to have to be done in spite of objections from various forces or various peple.

You can go, as we did, with this committee when we visited several different types of installations and at every installation to which you go you will get a different idea and a different opinion as to what a particular building ought to be like. There is going to have to be some standardizing and we will have to stick to it.

Mr. FLOETE. I think the authority is there-I do not think I can pass the buck for lack of authority. I think it boils down to the question of whether I can do the job or not. I think the authority is quite clear.

Mr. RILEY. Mr. Secretary, I want to express my gratification to you for the work of this Department. I think you are on the right track and I think you are going to be able to render a distinct service to this committee and to the Nation.

This committee has been concerned for some years over the manner in which this construction program and some others have been handled, but I definitely feel we are getting somewhere now.

Mr. FLOETE. Thank you, sir.

Mr. RILEY. I want to congratulate you, sir, on your work and I shall watch its operations with a great deal of interest.

I think it is inexcusable for us to make appropriations like we have been making and then have them hang fire for 2 or 3 years. If these projects are necessary they certainly ought to be under construction within 6 to 8 months.

Mr. FLOETE. That is right.

Mr. RILEY. I cannot see it any other way.

Mr. FLOETE. That is right. At the time you made the appropriation you were undoubtedly told that they had to have them right now. Mr. RILEY. Absolutely, or we would not have given them any money.

SPANISH CONSTRUCTION

Mr. DAVIS. There is one further matter that we would like to get your comments on this morning while you are here and that is with respect to the program of construction in Spain.

I do not suppose it would be fair to ask either of you gentlemen much with respect to the details of the agreement but we would like to know in general what the agreement is for the development of installations in Spanish territory and the plans of construction that you have and the program of supervision that is contemplated in regard to that program.

Mr. FLOETE. I can give you some general information and Admiral Jelley can tell you the organizational procedure, but these [indicating] are the four bases that are going to be built first.

(Discussion off the record.)

ORGANIZATIONAL PROCEDURE

Mr. FLOETE. The Air Force has been designated as the executive agent and the Air Force, in turn, has made an agreement with the Bureau of Yards and Docks to handle the details of construction, supervision, and getting the plans and engineering data together. As I understand it, they have had representatives over there. There