Mr. BEGG. What could you do in Palestine that you could not do in the United States beyond the restoration of the historic precedents?

Mr. LIPSKY. First of all, that is a question which if raised not in the United States might be a pertinent question.

Mr. BEGG. I do not want to embarrass you.

Mr. LIPSKY. There are 14,000,000 Jews in the world. There are 3,000,000 of these in the United States. The United States Government has passed certain restrictive measures against immigration. But as far as the United States is concerned, you could say that in the United States the Jews have perfect freedom. We are equal citizens. We develop with the institutions of America, etc., but there are 10,000,000 that are not here. There are 10,000,000 that are subject to all variations of persecution in eastern Europe, that make the Jewish people the victims.

Mr. BEGG. This would be a haven for people not in the United States? Mr. LIPSKY. To those who need it most it comes as the salvation. To those who need it least it is an inspiration to philanthropic endeavor and humanitar‍an and racial interests. Those who need it most are those people now being oppressed, driven from one country to another, who do not know exactly where they belong, and there are 10,000,000 Jewish people over there suffering these persecutions.

The CHAIRMAN. You would hardly say the entire 10,000,000 are suffering? Mr. LIPSKY. Of course not, but where you find in the capitals of Europe at the present time 10,000 to 20,000 of the best young men with nothing to do, treated as aliens in the cities of Vienna, Warsaw, Constantinople, Trieste, Bucharest, tens of thousands of young men with nothing to do and not being regarded as citizens of the country where they are, that is an indication of the tragic fact that 10,000,000 Jews are in serious trouble.

Mr. FISH. I think your figures are high. It practically means that every Jew outside of America is oppressed. That is not the fact.

Mr. LIPSKY. No. Assume in the United States, with 3,000,000 population. you have 500,000 of them constantly in distress, you would be justified in saying that the 3,000,000 are affected, because they have the burden of caring and looking after the 500,000 that are existing under adverse conditions.

The CHAIRMAN. Is the condition of the Jews in Vienna any worse than that of the other people in Vienna?

Mr. LIPSKY. Much worse, because they are refugees.

Mr. BEGG. That is the same question I am going to ask: Do the Jewish people in Russia suffer any worse than the Letts or the rest of them in the fluctuations in power occurring during this disorganized condition? If they establish a government and bring order out of chaos, will the Jews be treated as the rest of the people?

Mr. LIPSKY. Hardly possible, because they were not treated as were the natives, and the chances that they will be treated as other people are very small.

Mr. BEGG. Is that the case in countries adjoining Russia where they have a stable government?

Mr. FISH. In Rumania, Poland, and Hungary they are not treated as equals. Mr. LIPSKY. The Jewish people in Poland were the middlemen, who introduced industry and commerce into the country, and always have been identified with commerce and industry. And from the first Poland regarded over 60 per cent of the Jewish people as aliens, although they had contributed to the upbuilding of the country and had become a part of it. Because they were Jews they were regarded as aliens and treated accordingly.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you base that statement on the report brought to America by Louis Marshall?

Mr. LIPSKY. Mr. Marshall never was in Poland.

The CHAIRMAN. Did you ever read the report of the American commission that went to Poland for the purpose of investigating the pogroms?

Mr. LIPSKY. Yes.

Mr. MOORE of Virginia. Palestine is now under the control of Great Britain under a mandate. Is that the fact?

Mr. LIPSKY. I was going to go ahead with the story.

Mr. COCKRAN. What are the relative numbers of Jews and Mohammedans in Palestine now?

Mr. LIPSKY. At the present time there are 600,000 Arabs in Palestine and 80,000 Jews; that is, Mohammedan Arabs and Christian Arabs. The Mohammedan Arabs outnumber the Christians.

Mr. COCKRAN. The Mohammedans would be three to one to the rest of the population?

Mr. LIPSKY. Yes.

Mr. COLE. What are you going to do with them? Leave them in the country or expel them?

Mr. LIPSKY. No; the facts with regard to Palestine are these: Palestine is now occupied to the extent of 10 per cent of its territory by the present population.

The CHAIRMAN. What is the size of the territory?

Mr. LIPSKY. It is larger than the State of Rhode Island.

Mr. COCKRAN. Most of it is barren country around between Jerusalem and the shore. There is scarcely any arable land.

Mr. LIPSKY. Then it is peculiar-the choice of the Jewish people to go there. The CHAIRMAN. You say Palestine would be a haven of refuge to the Jewish people. How could they make a living in that barren country? Suppose two or three million Jewish refugees should go to Palestine. Will they make a living in that country?

Mr. LIPSKY. We have plans for the economic development of Palestine which would provide for at least 5,000,000 people to live in Palestine.

Mr. COCKRAN. What would they do-agriculture?

Mr. LIPSKY. The problem of Palestine has been that it was regarded by the Turkish Government as the outpost of the Empire, and because it was so regarded they wanted it to be as barren as it possibly could be. They had taxes imposed in Palestine that made it impossible for industry to develop, put taxes on trees which stimulated the destruction of the trees. They put imposts upon trade and made it impossible for trade to exist. They made taxes in such a form that the farmers who grew things never knew exactly how much taxes they would have to pay. The result of this effort of the Turks to preservePalestine as a desolate outpost of the Empire has been to remove trees from Palestine and display barren rocks and to promote aridness. The Zionist organization has in hand now a concession that has been granted by the British Government for the development of the water power of the Jordan River.

One of the Zionist engineers now in this country, Mr. Rutenberg, has developed the plans and with the expenditure of $5.000,000 the whole of that part of Palestine will be covered by the electrical plant and it will be developed into an industrial center, and the water of the Jordan River will irrigate the farms and in the course of 10 years these rocks will be covered with trees. The farms will be irrigated. There will be an industrial development all along the Jordan River. Palestine is a deserted country, not a barren country. Palestine is a fruitful country, but it has not been made fruitful because nobody was working on it. For 400 years there have been Arabs in Palestine. It is the same now, but due to the government and due to their own indolence they have never done anything to develop it. Only with the incoming of the Jews in the last 40 years have there sprouted in Palestine new institutions; schools, new cities, roads have been built, and enterprises have been introduced in Palestine. Whatever has been created in Palestine in the last 25 or 30 years has been created only by Jews. No other people came there; nobody went to Palensine to build it up except the Jewish people. Whether it is a desolate country or not, whether 10,000,000 can get in or not, the Jewish people make their choice and say, we are going to build up this country; we are going to make this a better country. We are going to make it ours through labor and sacrifice. You may think it is unprofitable. The Jewish people are going there to build it up for the sake of their ideals and their future.

The CHAIRMAN. You stated that the Jews in Poland and a number of other places were intermediaries in commercial life?

Mr. LIPSKY. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. Would these intermediaries go to Palestine? They would not enter into industrial life there?

Mr. LIPSKY. Some of them might.

The CHAIRMAN. Very few.

Mr. LIPSKY. Probably. But we are counting upon those, unfortunately; we are counting upon the thousands that are displaced. There are hundreds of thousands of Jews displaced from Poland, Armenia, Transylvania, and Galicia, and out of Russia. They must go somewhere. It is not a question of choice with them. They must go somewhere.

Mr. COOPER. Referring to the second paragraph of the resolution

"Whereas owing to the outcome of the World War and their part therein the Jew'sh people, under definite and adequate international guaranties are to be enabled, with due regard to the rights of all elements of the population of Palestine and to the sanctity of its holy places, to re-create and reorganize a national home in the land of their fathers-"

That states a fact, and the fact is this, that they are already under definite and adequate international guaranties. What are those definite international guaranties?

Mr. COCKRAN. We are trying to get the facts of the present economic conditions.

Mr. COOPER. That is the first thing to be ascertained.

Mr. FISH. They have explained that is in the Balfour declaration.
Mr. LIPSKY. The Balfour declaration during the period of the war.
Mr. COOPER. I know about that.

Mr. LIPSKY. It was indorsed by the allied governments. In line with that Balfour declaration, at the conference of the allied governments in San Remo in April, 1920, were created these conditions mentioned in the preamble of the resolution; that is, at San Remo the conference of the allied governments indorsed the Balfour declaration, and embodied the Balfour declaration in the treaty of Sevres with the Turkish Empire. They agreed among themselves with regard to certain conditions to be created, and among those conditions were these: That Syria, formerly part of the Turkish Empire, should be given under a mandate to the French Government; that Mesopotamia and Palestine should be given to the British Government under a mandate. Mr. COOPER. At San Remo and in the treaty of Sevres?

Mr. LIPSKY. Yes. I quote the letter of Mr. Balfour to Lord Rothschild.

DEAR LORD ROTHSCHILD:

FOREIGN OFFICE, November 2, 1917.

I have much pleasure in conveying to you on behalf of His Majesty's Government the following declaration of sympathy with Jewish Zionist aspirations, which has been submitted to, and approved by, the cabinet:

"His Majesty's Government view with favor the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavors to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country."

I should be grateful if you would bring this declaration to the knowledge of the Zionist Federation.

Yours sincerely,

ARTHUR JAMES BALFOUR.

Mr. COOPER. The Armenians claim that they were guaranteed certain rights under the treaty of Sevres by these same people and that they have totally disregarded the guaranties under the same treaty given to Armenia. What is there to show that the guaranties of the Armenians, disregarded in their case, will be observed in the case of the Jewish people?

Mr. LIPSKY. We are simply asking the American Government to express its sympathy with our endeavors. We will be more than glad to know that the American Government expresses its sympathy and interest in the Armenian people and hope America can express its sympathy and interest in the wellbeing of all oppressed peoples. We can not here ask assurances with regard to the conduct of the British Government. We simply want support and good will of the American Government in what we regard our just rights in the matter. Mr. COCKRAN. How is it proposed to put the Jewish people in possession of this land?

Mr. LIPSKY. By purchase. We are not expropriating; we are purchasing. We have purchased only recently over 12,000 acres of land at an expense of $1,500,000, purchased from the Arabs. No land in Palestine has been gotten except by purchase. There is no intention whatsoever to expropriate anybody. Mr. FISH. There are a number of others who want to be heard, and I will ask you to finish in 10 minutes.

Mr. LIPSKY. There have been interruptions. I can finish in five minutes. Mr. FISH. The interruptions have been valuable.

Mr. BEGG. If there is nothing beyond an expression of what is written in this resolution, an expression of satisfaction and sympathy, have you not a right to take it for granted that you have that? In other words, what is the concrete

good, or what abstract good can come out of a declaration of sympathy from the Nation that has always treated the Jews as equals? In other words, a Jewish-American is just as much an American as an Irish or Scotch or Welsh American. Supposing you pass this and then it flunks, is there any likelihood that they would come back and say, you are the partner of it and now come across and give us money? What have you not got that you will have if this goes through? That is vital in this.

Mr. LIPSKY. I will explain. Since the San Remo conference the mandate that was to be given to Great Britain has been held in abeyance, because when it came to present the treaty of Sevres to the Turks for signature the Allied Governments could not find the Turks; they did not have any party there prepared t› sign on behalf of the Turks. So the treaty of Sevres was held in abeyance. Because the treaty of Sevres was being held in abeyance, conditions in Palestine being uncertain, the British Government was unable to proceed in a legal way with the development of the country, with the granting of concessions, with the establishment of certain permanent institutions; there have been all sorts of troubles with regard to our affairs. We are also finding it hard to keep the Jewish people organized in this work, because the conditions are uncertain; we do not know exactly what is going to happen. The treaty of Sevres is not signed; the mandate is not actually under the League of Nations; the British Government is hesitating, and in England there is developing an anti-Semitic movement which aims at us, and we have to fight that anti-Semitic movement which paralyzes our constructive efforts, and in the United States itself we have exactly the same difficulty. The Jews are quite willing to go to Palestine, willing to give money to build up Palestine, to do anything for building up a Jewish home in Palestine, but can not do it while our affairs are in a state of uncertainty. We hope that other Governments will adopt resolutions similar to this and that we shall get an expression of opinion that will help to stabilize the situation.

Mr. KENNEDY. And keep up interest among the Jews in this country?

Mr. LIPSKY. And keep up the faith of Jews in other countries who depend upon us, upon our sacrifices, upon the money we can collect, to build up Palestine, because they can not build it up themselves. The Jews are not making the necessary sacrifices because the conditions are uncertain. They see the enemies of the Jewish people organizing everywhere, new enemies devloping, and there are breaks in the ranks here and there. As far as stabilizing conditions, the American Government, as a matter of fact, is a party to a certain extent to these international guaranties.

Mr. BEGG. How far?

Mr. LIPSKY. The Baifour declaration was approved by a representative of the American Government in advance of its being published. An American representative at Versailles gave assurances to the other Governments with regard to the Balfour declaration declaring a Jewish national home, and that the support of the American Government could be depended upon.

Mr. BEGG. Is it a fact that the man or men who gave the assurances failed to recognize another coordinate branch of the American Government? Mr. LIPSKY. President Harding himself wrote a letter.

Mr. BEGG. Well, he does not have any more right to do that than President Wilson.

Mr. LIPSKY. I simply say when an agent goes to a very important conference representing the American Government and gives assurances to the conference and discusses these assurances certain acts are performed. I am not assuming to hold anybody accountable for them. I simply say there is a moral obligation involved in that action.

Mr. BEGG. A friendship obligation is all right, but I do not see that the United States would be obligated further.

Mr. FISH. I will say about this particular resolution that I showed this resolution to the Secretary of State, but as it was originally worded it pledged the support of the Government and the Secretary took exception to pledging our support to the project, and those words were stricken out and changed to read as they are in the resolution now. So there is no indication or implication of pledging our support in this resolution.

Mr. ACKERMAN. Did the Secretary of State see the language of this resolution?

Mr. FISH. Yes.

Mr. ACKERMAN. He approved of this?

Mr. FISH. He has no objection. In fact he suggested a few changes, which were made.

Mr. COCKRAN. He did not take any affirmative action, but approved it.

Mr. LIPSKY. We understand that the State Department has given its approval to a resolution introduced in the Senate by Senator Lodge, which goes very much further than this resolution presented here.

The CHAIRMAN. Is that approval of the State Department in writing?

Mr. LIPSKY. No.

Mr. FISH. It is not quite right to commit the Secretary of State on this. I have talked to the Secretary and will say he has no objection to it. I think if we asked him he would probably give us his test mony.

Mr. LIPSKY. I will simply put into the record this resolution of Senator Lodge in the Senate. I will also present for the record opinions expressed by American Congressmen and Senators favoring the Balfour Declarat on.

The CHAIRMAN. Will you and Mr. Fish see that the record contains the Balfour declaration and approval by the All'ed Powers at Versailles, if any, and the portion of the treaty at San Remo relating to this matter?

Mr. LIPSKY. The treaty of Sevres, yes, and I will submit to you a copy of the mandate which has been submitted by the British Government to the League of Nations for approval which is a part of the treaty of Sevres.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes. I want to exclude from the record all matters not relating to this particular subject so as to hold down the cost of printing. Mr. LIPSKY. I will also put in the record a letter that President Harding sent to Mr. Alexander Wolf.

THE WHITE HOUSE, Washington, June 1, 1921.

MY DEAR MR. WOLF: I have already communicated to you my regrets that it is impossible for me to be present at the luncheon in honor of Dr. Chaim Weizmann, head of the Zionist Commission to the United States, but I want to add an expression of my most friendly interest in and for the Zionist movement. It is impossible for one who has studied at all the services of the Hebrew people to avoid the faith that they will one day be restored to their historic national home, and there enter on a new and yet greater phase of their contribution to the advance of humanity.

Please assure those who will be gathered at the luncheon to-day, of my continued concern for the cause in which you are all so zealously laboring. Most sincerely yours,

Mr. ALEXANDER WOLF,

(Signed)

WARREN G. HARDING.

Chairman World Zionist Organization Reception Committee,
Hotel Willard, Washington, D. C.

Mr. LINTHICUM. You said there were something like 60,000 Jews in Palestine. Mr. LIPSKY. Eighty thousand, increasing at the rate of 1,500 per month under adverse conditions.

Mr. LINTHICUM. Then there are 700,000 Arabs and Turks.

Mr. LIPSKY. No Turks at all; there are Arabs. A Turk belongs to a different

race.

Mr. LINTHICUM. I know that, but the Arabs claim to be descended from the patriarchs also.

Mr. LIPSKY. They are cousins of ours by race. They belong to the Semitic

race.

Mr. COCKRAN. They are descendants of Hagar.

Mr. LIPSKY. Left-handed cousins.

Mr. MOORES. Of the Mohammedans and Christians, what proportion are Mohammedans of these Arabs?

Mr. LIPSKY. Three to one.

Mr. LINTHICUM. Sir Herbert Samuel, governor general, wants the Jews admitted as fast as they can come.

Mr. LIPSKY. Yes; and we, too. Those peopie come in at the rate of 1,500 a month and go to work in building roads. They come from different parts of eastern Europe. They have graduated from universities and professions and come into Palestine and take jobs for the same price of labor as Arabs, practically the same, on roads, go to work under the most difficult conditions to help build up the country.

Mr. LINTHICUM. What are you doing to build up the soil?