Mr. BEVILL. This is indicated by your report here, that you are leasing less and less and you are building more and more? Mr. FRIEDLANDER. Yes, sir.

SITE ACQUISITION

Mr. BEVILL. To follow through on the question of the chairman with regard to acquiring land which you know you will eventually have to use in a particular area, and you know of a site you can buy now which you know will cost much more later, under the present setup you have not been able to take advantage of that. With the new revolving fund will you have authority to acquire this land even where you know it may be even 10 years before you put up a building? Mr. ROUSH. Counsel will address himself to that subject.

Mr. RICE. Our problem in that regard stems from the fact that GAO has decided that we do not have the authority to pay a consideration to acquire an option to buy land. We have been able to get no-cost options in some cases where we know a particular project will be located within a particular area. Where we do not have a definite project in mind, and where we do not have definite information, we don't acquire the site because we don't have authority to plan for it.

Mr. GALUARDI. The basic problem in acquiring a site now for some project in the future is that we cannot be certain as to what size the site should be, because we are not in a good position to be able to predict the number of square feet of building that will be required to house agencies 10 to 15 years from now. Therefore we act on the basis that it is best to wait until such time as we have a definite requirement for a facility to be able to determine the exact size of the site we require.

Mr. BEVILL. I gather from what has been said there-I realize it would be a little speculative for you to try to look 10 years ahead. Mr. GALUARDI. Yes.

ACQUISITION OF OPTIONS

Mr. BEVILL. In having some authorization to pay up to a certain amount of funds, perhaps $1,000, merely a nominal amount for an option, would this be helpful?

Mr. GALUARDI. Yes. Providing legal authority to acquire options would be a great help. We don't have it now.

Mr. BEVILL. You would be at a disadvantage in not getting an option. because an individual can go in and buy the same tract of land that you would want to buy and could buy because they can write a check for $1,000 option and you cannot do that.

Mr. ROUSH. That is correct.

Mr. BEVILL. It would seem we ought to do something about that to give you some authority to require options.

Mr. ROUSH. Our General Counsel, Mr. Casselman, has a comment. Mr. CASSELMAN. In our last legislative program we did submit legislation to the Office of Management and Budget to amend the Public Buildings Act of 1959 to authorize the acquisition of options to purchase property. That legislation is still with the Office of Management and Budget.

Mr. BEVILL. How long have they had this?

Mr. CASSELMAN. About a year.

CONSTRUCTION OF GOVERNMENT BUILDINGS

Mr. BEVILL. Yesterday I touched on something I wanted to continue. As I understand it, your agency now is handling all Government buildings with the exception of those under the new Postal Service setup. Is that generally correct?

Mr. GALUARDI. Another exception to general purpose buildings would be those for which funds are appropriated directly to agencies to construct special purpose facilities.

Mr. GARDNER. You should also include the Defense Department. Mr. GALUARDI. Yes. The Department of Defense on posts, camps, and stations.

Mr. BEVILL. Is there any program underway for your agency to handle all of the buildings, all Government buildings, including Postal Service as well as Defense?

Mr. GALUARDI. There is no such program. We would not object to it, but there are some agencies which perhaps would object to giving us that authority. We do use a system whereby we think we can do the best job of management and construction. We will demonstrate it, and we think the customers will come to us after we have done that. Mr. BEVILL. I think you can, too. It would be to the Government's interest to have your jurisdiction extended.

That is all I have.

SITE SELECTION

Mr. MYERS. In your procedure in selecting the site for future construction or pending construction of a Federal building, what is the system used in finally selecting a site? Does the agency select the site and then you try to acquire it? Do you people have the responsi bility of ultimately making the final decision on a site?

Mr. ROUSH. Ultimate decision on the site is an authority of the Administrator of GSA. We make every effort to weigh every agency's requirements so the agency can perform its mission at the selected site.

Mr. MYERS. I realize this next question will be difficult, and I suppose it is a place where a judgment has to be made, but how much weight is placed upon the location as far as cost is concerned? Perhaps you have in mind a downtown area costing several million dollars. but you might move several blocks farther out in order to get a price one-third as much. How much weight is given these considerations! Mr. GALUARDI. If I may explain the procedure we use, I believe it will answer your question. We determine in advance the delineated area within which we would like the considered site.

Mr. MYERS. You draw parameters?

Mr. GALUARDI. That is right. The parameters are usually so general that they include the most desirable location as well as other locations several blocks or even several miles distant. We place ads in the newspaper indicating that we are interested in acquiring a site within the delineated area. Anyone who has an interest in selling a site to the Government then can come forward. We do, of course, receive offers of sites outside the delineated area and also analyze them, but often we reject them because they are not acceptable. They may be in a residential or otherwise unsuitable area.

Then we do a comprehensive analysis of the sites. Executive Order 11512, which is the socioeconomic Executive order, requires us to consider the impact the selection of our site would have upon the community. In the process we deal with the community leaders, the Department of Housing and Urban Development, and others who provide information in arriving at the proper decision. There are some examples where in the past, for example, in Fresno, Calif., we made a comprehensive study and determined that the site location would provide employment for minorities within the community, consisting of both the black and Spanish-speaking people. We did pay a slight premium for the site as opposed to other sites which might have cost a little less.

Within a downtown community, we deal with the community itself, the municipal government, the State, and the State clearing agency. They assist us in determining a good site within the delineated area.

We take into consideration a lot of other factors, including transportation. Though a site which is remote might cost less, it also would be less convenient to the public and the employee. All these factors are taken into consideration and we select the site we think is best. In some instances it might cost a little more for what we believe to be the best location.

SITE ACQUISITION

Mr. MYERS. When you finally select a location, how frequently is eminent domain required to acquire land?

Mr. GALUARDI. We normally try to acquire the site by voluntary conveyance. Lacking that we must use our power of eminent domain. Many times we must enter into friendly condemnations. We don't want to condemn, but we must because there are clouds in the title. We must condemn the site even though we could have obtained it.

Mr. MYERS. Who has the legal responsibility, you, the Justice Department, or whom?

Mr. GALUARDI. We make a determination we can no longer obtain the site by voluntary conveyance and we transmit our request to the Department of Justice.

Mr. MYERS. After title is obtained it comes back to you?
Mr. GALUARDI. They give title to us.

FEDERAL SPACE NEEDS WITHIN COMMUNITIES

Mr. MYERS. In the actual construction, when an agency notifies you that they are going to need a facility or a building, who is responsible to other agencies who in the very near future in that same community may also need a building? Do you consolidate here and make maximum use of facilities?

Mr. ROUSH. We have an ongoing program of reviewing Federal space needs within communities. We are the responsible organization for determining the needs of Federal agencies within a community and we would consolidate wherever it was logical.

Mr. MYERS. Is there an actual inventory made of the various agencies. in the community? Does a questionnaire go out to them? Is it from your ongoing knowledge that you rely on?

Mr. ROUSH. It may be either way.

Mr. MYERS. There is no procedure?

Mr. FREIDLANDER. In every case where a prospectus is submitted to the Public Works Committee, there is a complete survey made of the community and the projected plans of all of the Federal agencies currently in that community, or expected to come into that community. The housing plan for the building is completely described in an attachment to that prospectus, the proposed housing plan for all of those agencies. The plan shows where those agencies are located presently, so if there are increases proposed, it is evident by comparing the present space to the proposed situation.

Mr. MYERS. In a community where you intend to build a facility how much encouragement, how much inducement is provided to agencies who lease, also to be included within the new building? Do you give them some encouragement? Do you make some effort to encourage them to come into the same area?

Mr. GALUARDI. They must submit a request to us when they have a requirement for additional space. When this happens, we prepare Federal space situation report. A space management technician goes to the community and brings up to date the records which we already have on file, so that we know the needs and requirements of all the agencies. He makes an analysis to determine whether or not the agencies are satisfactorily housed as they are, whether there should be changes and consolidation into new leased space, or whether or not a new Federal facility needs to be constructed."

If the decision is made that a new facility is to be constructed, a report is submitted to the Commissioner of Public Buildings Service recommending the project in the community. The Commissioner then authorizes a project development report, which is a very comprehensive study. At this point, we contact the community leaders to make a determination as to whether or not it is still best to construct the building.

After that is done, a prospectus is prepared and submitted to the Office of Management and Budget and the Public Works Committee. During this process we go to the local offices of the agency, the regional offices, and then the headquarters office of the agency to be sure we have available to us all the knowledge that those agencies have about their programs, their space requirements, and their possible expansion requirements or elimination of space requirements.

x

CONSOLIDATION OF SPACE NEEDS

Mr. MYERS. You have not exactly hit on the question. Let me give you a hypothetical. The U.S. courts come to you and say they need a court facility in a community. You decide you will build a courthouse in this community. There are possibly five other agencies, Federal agencies, in the community which now rent. What effort is made to bring those other five renting agencies into the same court facility!

Mr. GALUARDI. Whenever we go through this process and determine we should construct a building, we will normally include in it all the requirements that exist in that community which should be included in that Federal building. There are certain requirements within a community which cannot normally be located in a downtown area which is where a courthouse would be. The space that is at the airport

Mr. MYERS. It would?

Mr. GALUARDI. Space is at the airport

Mr. MYERS. Why would a courthouse have to be downtown? People come to the court. The court does not necessarily come to the people. Mr. GALUARDI. It does not necessarily have to be downtown, but we have not located one out of town yet.

Mr. ROUSH. The attorney's offices, and so forth, which do business in the courthouse normally

Mr. MYERS. I never saw one walk yet. Every time you build a building you have to have a vast amount of parking space also available, which is incorporated in every courthouse you build.

Mr. GALUARDI. The bar associations normally state that if there is a courthouse in the community, there are usually other courts there, such as county courts and perhaps city courts. The lawyers who are practicing before the Federal court also practice before these other courts and they have a requirement to move back and forth among the facilities.

Mr. MYERS. A farmer works out in the country, but you do not give much consideration to him. The Farmers Home Administration and these others are not considered in that way.

TRAVEL COSTS

In your travel, item 21, in 2 years it has almost tripled. What has caused such a tremendous increase in travel for sites and expenses of public buildings? You have gone from $208,178 to $600,000 in 1974. Mr. ROUSH. It is the management and inspection of additional projects due to the increase in the number of projects we now have under construction.

Mr. GALUARDI. This travel is used to pay the cost of travel for the construction inspectors. Since our projects are usually located outside of the city in which our regional offices are located, our construction inspectors have to travel to those locations. That travel is funded in this appropriation. We have a substantial number of new projects under construction under the purchase contract programs. Mr. MYERS. Three times as many?

Mr. GALUARDI. I don't know the exact number.
Mr. FRIEDLANDER. More than that, in value.

DIRECT FEDERAL CONSTRUCTION

Mr. MILLER. Mr. Chairman, we heard a few moments ago about the type of construction, direct Federal construction, the lease and purchase contracts. I am wondering about the direct Federal construction, not necessarily the way you choose the location, but give us a little of the economics of this as to the procedure you must go through for direct Federal construction of facilities.

Mr. GALUARDI. When we prepare the prospectus for a project we determine at that time whether or not the project will be accomplished by lease, purchase contract, or direct Federal construction. In the event that the prospectus does state direct Federal construction, the Public Works Committees must authorize it. Presuming that that action has occurred, then the appropriation requests are submitted in two parts. The first is the sites and expenses appropriation, which is