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(c) The Commission shall be "an agency of the United States" under subsection (1), section 6001, title 18, United States Code, for the purpose of granting immunity to witnesses.

(d) Each department, agency, and instrumentality of the executive branch of the Government including independent agencies, is authorized and directed to furnish to the Commission, upon request made by the chairman, on a reimbursable basis or otherwise, such statistical data, reports, and other information as the Commission deems necessary to carry out its functions under this title. The chairman is further authorized to call upon the departments, agencies, and other offices of the several States to furnish, on a reimbursable basis or otherwise, such statistical data, reports, and other information as the Commission deems necessary to carry out its functions under this title.

COMPENSATION AND EXEMPTION OF MEMBERS

Sec. 807. (a) A member of the Commission who is a Member of Congress or a member of the Federal judiciary shall serve without additional compensation, but shall be reimbursed for travel, subsistence, and other necessary expenses incurred in the performance of duties vested in the Commission.

(b) A member of the Commission who is not a member of Congress or a member of the Federal judiciary shall receive $100 per diem when engaged in the actual performance of duties vested in the Commission plus reimbursement for travel, subsistence, and other necessary expenses incurred in the performance of such duties.

STAFF

Sec. 808. (a) Subject to such rules and regulations as may be adopted by the Commission, the chairman shall have the power to

(1) Appoint and fix the compensation of an Executive Director, and such additional staff personnel as he deems necessary, without regard to the provisions of title 5, United States Code, governing appointments in the competitive service, and without regard to the provisions of chapter 51 and subchapter III of chapter 53 of such title relating to classification and General Schedule pay rates, but at rates not in excess of the maximum rate for GS-18 of the General Schedule under section 5332 of such title; and

(2) Procure temporary and intermittent services to the same extent as is authorized by section 3109 of title 5, United States Code, but at rates not to exceed $100 a day for individuals.

(b) In making appointments pursuant to this subsection, the chairman shall include among his appointments individuals determined by the chairman to be competent social scientists, lawyers, and law enforcement officers.

EXPENSES

Sec. 809. There are hereby authorized to be appropriated to the Commission such sums as may be necessary to carry this title into effect.

PART E-GENERAL PROVISIONS

Sec. 810. Paragraph (c), subsection (1), section 2516, title 18, United States Code, is amended by adding "section 1511 (obstruction of State or local law enforcement)," after "section 1510 (obstruction of criminal investigations)," and by adding "section 1955 (prohibition of business enterprises of gambling)," after "section 1954 (offer, acceptance, or solicitation to influence operations of employee benefit plan),".

SEC. 811. No provision of this title indicates an intent on the part of the Congress to occupy the field in which such provision operates to the exclusion of the law of a State or possession, or a political subdivision of a State or possession, on the same subject matter, or to relieve any person of any obligation imposed by any law of any State or possession, or political subdivision of a State or possession.

LIFE OF COMMISSION

Mr. STEED. Do you visualize that the Commission's work will be finished during its 4-year life or do you expect something to grow out of this Commission that would be more permanent in nature?

34-174 073 pt, 4 14

Mr. MORIN. I personally have not considered the Commission as lasting beyond the 4 years. It seems to me, talking to people in the field and from my own independent studies, that it is time that the United States did something about gambling.

I even feel it might be done before that 4-year period. The Senate committee report which accompanied the Organized Crime Control Act made the statement that with the enactment of title 8, which was the Organized Crime Control Act of 1970, the extension of Federal jurisdiction into the field of syndicated gambling will have reached its constitutional limit. Federal concern over the use of interstate facilities to promote gambling has a long history. The Federal concern with the operations of the syndicates themselves, and we are talking about organized crime syndicates, and the attendant failure of State and local law enforcement to meet the challenge of professional gambling began only with the Attorneys General Conference on Organized Crime in 1950. It is clearly time, therefore, to take stock of what our Nation is and what directions it should take in the future.

I have a personal sense of urgency for the work of the Commission. I think that organized crime, as far as I can see and as far as the Senate of the United States determined, has fed off illegal gambling activities for some time. If we can do the job of making at least recommendations to the executive and to the legislative branches of our Government, I think we should do the job and do it quickly.

TRAVEL EXPENSES

Mr. STEED. You have said that the Commissioners have all been appointed and who they are and that the public members will receive compensation for their travel and expenses during official meetings. Mr. MORIN. The statute provides for travel expenses and $100 a day compensation for public members.

SELECTION AND COMPENSATION OF STAFF

Mr. STEED. Of course, in addition to yourself, the compensated staff will be officially approved by the Commission, or does the Director do that?

Mr. MORIN. In terms of compensation?

Mr. STEED. Yes. Of the selection and compensation.

Mr. MORIN. The chairman is authorized under statute to select personnel. The only limitation in the statute is the top grade, GS-18. However, we are always under the watchful eye of the GAO, and the General Services Administration will perform the administrative functions on a reimbursable basis, as I understand it.

We will not have our own financial people in the Commission, our own comptrollers. These functions will be performed by GSA. The chairman will obviously have to approve expenditures and the General Accounting Office supervise the entire matter.

Mr. STEED. GSA is going to be your housekeeper?
Mr. MORIN. Yes, sir.

COMMISSION MEETINGS

Mr. STEED. How often do you think the Commission will be meeting?

Mr. MORIN. We had at least for the first year anticipated bimonthly meetings. That is six during the year. My impression is that the members of this Commission are peculiarly interested in being active on the Commission. Obviously the attorney general of the State of Nevada is going to take a very active part and so will the prosecuting attorneys from these two counties, one in Ohio and one in New Jersey.

Mr. Gimma from New York has called and written to me. He has a very definite interest in the Commission itself and he is very knowledgeable in the field, being the chairman of the Racing Commission in New York. It seems that bimonthly meetings, six at least in the fiscal year, is not extravagant in terms of at least the number of meetings.

SCOPE OF WORK

Mr. STEED. Do you think that the work of the Commission will be far-ranging in nature to the extent perhaps of recommending national legalization of gambling?

Mr. MORIN. It is entirely possible.

Mr. STEED. I am asking this question mostly to measure the size of the possible work that you may perform.

Mr. MORIN. Well, the statute does not limit anything that we can do. Fortunately, all we can do is recommend and then it becomes a matter for you 435 gentlemen and 100 Senators and the executive department of the Government to pass on our recommendations. It is entirely possible, as we view the situation now, that we might well propose uniform State laws on gambling, perhaps a uniform law that we would recommend for States which determine to prohibit gambling altogether and perhaps a uniform law for States which make their own determination to legalize all gambling as Nevada has. The purpose of uniform laws is to provide recommendations on law enforcement and the enforcement of the laws which they do have. That is a possibility. Another possibility is to illegalize all gambling and provide enforcement machinery that is more effective than what we now have. Another possibility is a national lottery. I think there are an infinite number of possibilities.

Mr. HOGAN. May I comment on that?

I agree with everything Mr. Morin said. There may very well be an overall recommendation for a national lottery if it is deemed to be a feasible means of revenue without a lot of fallout disadvantages. From my personal experience, I am involved in a subcommittee of the Judiciary Committee which has for one of its activities revising the Federal Criminal Code. Many aspects of that relate to gambling. It would seem to me that we would be in a much better position at this point in time if this Commission had been created 4 or 5 years ago, and we now had the benefit of its labors as we try to reform title 18. I wish we were now able to draw on the findings of this Commission. I think it would be a lodestone of benefit, not only to the Congress as we try to find legislative solutions to crime as related to gambling, but for the State legislatures as well.

Mr. STEED. You know, one of the advantages of being on this kind of committee when somebody like you with a mission comes along is that we get gratuitously to make suggestions as to how you run your business. In that vein I have two or three observations I want to make that I hope you might find of some interest.

BETTING ON SPORTS EVENTS

It seems to me that one field that has probably had as widespread an effect as anything is the proclivity of so many Americans to bet on sporting events. They make football parlays, but horse racing betting is the big one. I think you find even out in some of the smallest villages there are people who want to have a football parlay card, that kind of thing. This is a very lucrative field for organized gambling to feed from, because they can find so many willing participants.

I have a lot of friends that do this, and I don't believe any of them have any idea they are participating in organized crime in any way, shape, or form. This is just a thing they like to do.

Another thing, I don't know too much about it, but you are always reading about how even in the ghettos of large metropolitan areas the numbers business has a big appeal. It has a way of letting all sorts of little people in for a piece of the action, and they do it.

INTERNATIONAL GAMBLING ACTIVITIES

I heard something the other day that interested me, and that is television and radio stations in Canada are taking advantage of the fact that FCC regulations in the United States will not permit the broadcasting of the winners or the numbers or the other things that go into gambling. Canadian stations then are broadcasting them to attract American audiences and in so doing play right into the hands of organized criminals' activity.

Will you be going into this sort of international situation?

Mr. MORIN. Without any question. Interestingly enough, there is the British soccer pool, which is an enormous legal gambling operation, and Great Britain is at the present time talking about doing the same thing in the United States, in those States that allow legal lotteries, in using lottery machinery. I think it has become international in scope.

Mr. STEED. I have one sideline on gambling habits in England. At one time when we were there checking on some of their postal operations we were interested to find it is a widespread practice of Englishmen to bet on the races, and they have a 2-pound note that is used for the betting, like our old $2 bill. They had money order machines that would issue these two-bob money orders because this is what the Englishman wanted to use in his betting. They had sidewalk vendors and were mechanically dispensing money orders to the gamblers of England, and it was a thriving business.

Mr. HOGAN. New York has comparable off-track betting. Many States are going into that.

Mr. Chairman, may I be excused to answer the quorum call?

[Mr. Hogan was excused.]

Mr. STEED. I will yield now to Mr. Robison.

Mr. ROBISON. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

NUMBER OF NATIONAL STUDY COMMISSIONS

Let me ask our friend here from the General Services Administration if he knows how many national study commissions there are now extant of one kind or another.

Mr. CRATEN. That are in business?

Mr. ROBISON. Yes.

Mr. CRATEN. It is difficult to say. While we service a number, we have upward of 40 at the present time that we provide administrative support for. There are many more. There are advisory committees that are attached to the various agencies, for instance.

Mr. ROBISON. You might, if you would, provide some supplementary information along those lines for the record. Mr. CRATEN. Yes, sir.

[The information follows:]

Based on information supplied by the Office of Management and Budget, there are presently a total of 1,439 commission-type agencies. Not all of these bear the title of "commission" or "national study commission,' per se, but under the title of "board," "council," "committee," "task force," and so forth, have a common scope and purpose. Twenty-one of these agencies are classified according to OMB statistics as "Presidentially established commissions." The remaining 1,418 were established by statute.

Mr. ROBISON. Mr. Morin, I ask the question not so much with any desire of showing any unfriendliness for this particular project, but because I sometimes wonder if we, in this Nation, don't tend to study everything to death to the point where there are, as our friend said, all sorts of study commissions, most of which produce a report with recommendations, but too many of which end up on a shelf, gathering dust, and nothing ever happens with regard to them.

You presented some reasons to us as to why you think this might be an exception, at least in your mind, and I appreciate your willingness to work on this project. But although I am really from New York, I am from "Missouri" when it comes to the necessity for creating and funding additional study commissions unless they are going to serve some real public purpose.

Do you want to comment briefly, without going through what you have already said before?

Mr. MORIN. Of course, I think what you are saying, Mr. Robison, is for me to perhaps defend what the Senate of the United States did in 1970?

Mr. ROBISON. Do that.

REASONS FOR ESTABLISHMENT OF THE COMMISSION

Mr. MORIN. The determination I think was made at that time that organized syndicate gambling in the United States presented a clear and present danger to the public, that you had a hodgepodge of various State laws, you had a rather difficult and even obscure Federal law regarding gambling, and that the existence of illegal gambling had begun to get to the very core of the entire law enforcement procedure in the United States.

I think that Congress felt, and feels, an urgency to take action federally to put an end to the erosion of law enforcement in this area and of the social ill that this sort of gambling operation appeared to present, at least in the urban areas of the country.