Mr. MOALPINE. That is right. The CHAIRMAN. And isn't it the desire of all the companies to try to keep it safe so they won't have a hazardous disaster like 30 or 40 or 50men killed and have to pay compensation on it? They all carry compensation, don't they? Mr. MCALPINE. Some carry their own. I will say it should be the desire, but I cannot say it is the desire. Mr. ARENDS. Is there anything good about the coal operators in this country? Mr. MCALPINE. If you work for some as long as I have you would not think so. Mr. ARENDS. I asked you a question. Isn't there anything good about them? Mr. MCALPINE. Oh, yes; every man has his principles. Mr. ARENDS. That is fine. The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Kilday. Mr. KILDAY. As I understand, you are an entirely independent organization? Mr. MCALPINE. We are at this time; yes. Mr. KILDAY. Do you feel if the supervisory personnel is organized in the mine it should remain independent? Mr. MCALPINE. No, sir; I do not. Mr. KILDAY. You feel if the mine has a union, the United Mine Workers, the supervisory personnel should belong to the United Mine Workers? Mr. MCALPINE. I do. Mr. KILDAY. Then under the organization there, which is an industrial organization, isn't it, everybody in the mine belongs to the same union? Mr. MCALPINE. That is the way it should be; yes. Everybody who works in that industry should belong to the United Mine Workers of America. Mr. KILDAY. And there would be no separate union for the miners organized into one industrial union? Mr. MCALPINE. Our idea is this: As far as the Mine Officials' Union is concerned we say we need a union and need it bad-real bad. But as a coal operator often stated to me-I have had it quoted to me by coal operators-there is not room enough in the coal industry for two unions, and I heartily agree with that. Therefore, after we found out the way the coal operators felt the executive board of this union, the Mine Officials' Union of America, petitioned the United Mine Workers for the right to become a part of the United Mine Workers. Now, I have heard it said here in this meeting or in front of this board, and they always put the emphasis on the supervisory employees joining and belonging to the same union as the rank and file, that is definitely not true according to our position. We want under the United Mine Workers but we want under it as a separate set-up. Or in other words, the United Mine Workers today have their meetings every 2 weeks and the only men that are admitted to that meeting are members of the rank and file. Now, if we become part of the United Mine Workers they will still continue in the future to hold their meetings as they did in the past and the only provision that we ask, and I think will be granted to us, is a subdivision there and we will go on and have a right to hold our meetings by ourselves. In other words, we will not mingle a bit with the rank and file. Mr. KILDAY. That would be an innovation with the United Mine Workers. They do not operate that way. In other words, if a machinist may be working in the mine he would belong to the same union as the men, as the actual miners, and not as in some industries where they may be five or six different trade unions. Mr. MCALPINE. In the United Mine Workers it is operated that way, it is just one union. Mr. KILDAY. That is right, it is an industrial union which is in the entire industry. Mr. MCALPINE. That is right. Mr. KILDAY. So if the supervisory personnel come in with a separate organization it will be something new as far as the United Mine Workers is concerned. Mr. MCALPINE. Well, the United Mine Workers have issued a pamphlet which I have here and in the last paragraph of that pamphlet it distinctly states The international executive board will later devise rules and issue instructions to local unions regulating the relationship of these new members to the local union in the community where they live and work. In other words, the executive board of the international, the officials of the United Mine Workers, will draw up rules and regulations governing supervisory employees as an independent set-up from the rank and file. Mr. KILDAY. To affiliate with the United Mine Workers? Mr. MCALPINE. Yes. Mr. KILDAY. Has the petition been granted? What is the status now of the petition for affiliation? Mr. MCALPINE. I think Mr. Lewis at this time, in one of his demands to the operators asks that they recognize supervisory employees and grant the right of bargaining to him. Mr. KILDAY. Doesn't he go a little further than that? Didn't he in a statement issued to the United Mine Workers membership state that all of the supervisory personnel should be tendered an application to join the United Mine Workers? Mr. MCALPINE. That is right. That is necessary. No matter what organization you want to join in America today you must sign a card granting them the right to bargain and represent you in bargaining. Mr. KILDAY. I do not want to take up too much time, but here is what I am asking you to discuss. You have indicated something that was brought up by the other side and I want to get your views of it in the record as to the advisability of the supervisory personnel being a member of the same union or affiliated with the same union set-up, or the advisability of it being separate entirely. I would like to have you state your objections. Mr. MCALPINE. That is right. Mr. KILDAY. I Would like to have you state your objections to the one or the other, and the reasons for your views. Mr. MCALPINE. That is what our body feels as a whole. Our executive board approved a petition to John L. Lewis, the president of the United Mine Workers, asking that he take us in. Mr. KILDAY. To the United Mine Workers? Mr. MCALPINE. Yes. Mr. KILDAY. But as a branch or a separate organization with affiliation only? Mr. MCALPINE. That is right. Mr. KILDAY. That is all. Mr. ARENDS. I would just like to ask one or two more questions to see if I have the picture clear. When you stated your coal mining activities you were raised to be a fire boss? Mr. MCALPINE. Yes. Mr. ARENDS. I believe you stated you drew down a salary of $230 per month following which you were fired and then you appeared before the National Labor Relations Board to plead your case and then you got your job back and were reinstated? Is that right? Mr. MCALPINE. That is right. Mr. ARENDS. Then after you were reinstated you worked along at a salary of $230 a month and then the company put you on a per diem basis? Mr. MCALPINE. No, no. When they fired me they had cut us in November 1940, the 1st of December 1940 were on a day rate of $8 a day and cut my $230 down. About a week after we held our meeting, on the 19th day of December 1940, I was fired. I was reinstated January 27, 1941. after a 6 weeks' period. Now we weren't on by the month then. We were on a day rate and for 6 weeks' work I received $136, and we continued on by the day from December 1, 1940, until we had an opportunity to sit down and talk to the coal company, which was in February 1941. Mr. ARENDS. When were you reinstated? Mr. MCALPINE. Right after I was reinstated they granted us the right to sit down and talk and they put us on a monthly basis. Mr. ARENDS. You were put on a monthly basis at what rate? Mr. MCALPINE. $215. Mr. ARENDS. $215? Mr. MCALPINE. That is right. Mr. ARENDS. And they you stayed on at that rate until the day you quit? Mr. MCALPINE. No. That agreement we had with the company ran out right before I quite and they granted us another raise through negotiation with the company and we were able to get another raise. Mr. ARENDS. You had a better salary when you quit than when you were put back on the pay roll? Mr. MCALPINE. That is right, through negotiations. Mr. ARENDS. Why did you quit? Was it on account of working conditions in the mine? Mr. MCALPINE. No; I quit to take the full time job as president of the organization. Mr. ARENDS. Is it a better-paying job than the mine? Mr. MCALPINE. Not a whole lot after you take out your expenses. Mr. MCALPINE. That is right. Mr. ARENDS. That is all. Mr. HARNESS. I have just a couple of questions. You formed this association in 1937? Mr. MCALPINE. No. Mr. HARNESS. Oh was it 1940? Mr. MCALPINE. It was in December of 1940. We had gone on with these conditions from 1937 up until 1940. Mr. HARNESS. You formed the association in 1940? Mr. MCALPINE. That is right. Mr. HARNESS. And after a short time the company recognized you for bargaining? Mr. MCALPINE. That is right. Mr. HARNESS. At that particular time in 1940 when you formed this organization there was a provision in the constitution of the United Mine Workers of America which in substance provided you were not eligible to join that organization? Mr. MCALPINE. That is right. Mr. HARNESS. And in the contract with the United Mine Workers that they had with the operators there was a provision that you were not eligible to belong to the union, was there not? Mr. MCALPINE. That is right. Mr. HARNESS. When was the constitution of the United Mine Workers amended striking out that provision? Mr. MCALPINE. About October of last year at their convention that was voted on by the rank and file of the United Mine Workers and it was adopted at their convention in Cincinnati. Mr. HARNESS. That was brought about by your organization? Mr. MCALPINE. It was brought about by the possibilities of the two unions being formed in the coal industry and the coal operators, I am sure, and no doubt Mr. Lewis, saw the possibility of two unions in the coal industry and in the coal industry there is only room for one. Mr. HARNESS. The thing that I do not understand is why the United Mine Workers deemed it advisable to have such a provision in their constitution up until last year. Mr. MCALPINE. Well, for this reason. The rank and file of miners never wanted to belong to an organization where the bosses would come in and mingle with them and it was always very much stressed by the delegates to any convention, and when it was put over to show that we could have an independent set-up within the United Mine Workers through affiliation and not be there with them at all, they approved of it immediately. Mr. HARNESS. If you accomplish this purpose that you are endeavoring to accomplish the United Mine Workers will do the bargaining for you, won't they? Mr. MCALPINE. That is right. Mr. HARNESS. They will be bargaining for you as well as the rank and file? Mr. MCALPINE. Yes, sir. Mr. HARNESS. Aren't your interests in conflict as supervisory employees? Aren't they in conflict with the rank and file? Mr. MCALPINE. Mr. Congressman, every member, every man that works in the mine, regardless of whether he is a rank and file miner or a supervisory employee, recognizes that John L. Lewis is the greatest bargainer there is in America. Now, he goes in there bargaining for the rank and file. He carries out the policy adopted by the rank and file of the miners. He goes in and bargains for the terms that they sanction. The supervisory employees will also do the same thing. We will draw up demands or draw up a wage scale and we will present them to John L. Lewis as the man to present them and bargain with the coal operator, but we will make up the provisions of that negotiation. Mr. HARNESS. I see. That is all. Mr. FENTON. Mr. McAlpin, as a fire boss, did you have to take any special examination? Mr. MCALPINE. Yes, sir; I did. Mr. FENTON. What kind of an examination? Mr. MOALPINE. I took a written examination which was supervised over by three mine inspectors of the State of Pennsylvania. Mr. FENTON. It was a State examination? Mr. MCALPINE. A written examination which lasted 1 day, and then after passing that examination I was called back and went through 1 day of oral examination. Mr. FENTON. That was under the direction of the State of Pennsylvania? Mr. McAIPINE. That is right. Mr. FENTON. Well, now, do you consider yourself as a fire boss to be a State official? Rather, did you consider yourself as a fire boss to be a State official? Mr. MCALPINE. No, sir; I did not. Mr. FENTON. And yet you had to carry out the provisions of the mine law? Mr. MCALPINE. That is right. Mr. FENTON. Now, in your capacity of fire boss, have you ever had to measure the velocity and quantity of air, and so forth?" Mr. MCALPINE. Inside the mine, no. The law definitely states that the work of the mine foreman who in the morning when we went inthe reason why I said we counted the revolutions of the fan was in order to see just about how much air was going in. Mr. FENTON. How did you know that if you were not supposed to measure the air? Mr. MCALPINE. You can tell by the revolutions of the fan. You see, it was a steam fan and you can count the exhausts and you know exactly the revolutions a minute. Mr. FENTON. Were you ever a miner yourself? Mr. MCALPINE. Yes, sir. Mr. FENTON. How many years did you mine? Mr. MCALPINE. As an actual miner at the face, digging coal, I will say a year and a half. Mr. FENTON. What is the provision of law for being an assistant foreman? Mr. MCALPINE. To be an assistant foreman 5 years' experience in the mine. Mr. FENTON. Well, now, you would not mean to tell this committee, Mr. McAlpine, if you found something wrong in the mine that you would not record it in the record and report it? Mr. MCALPINE. I would not. Whatever I found in there I put on the book. |