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The CHAIRMAN. Is it your contention that your group should determine the policy for the operation of the plant?

Mr. TURNBULL. Well, no; I would not say that, Mr. Chairman. I think we can well enough leave that in the hands of management. I think if we carry out our job of getting our production out that is our job to do.

Mr. SPARKMAN. Do you feel that the foremen ought to have a separate union of their own?

Mr. TURNBULL. Yes; most definitely so, sir.
Mr. SPARKMAN. And it should not be a part of the shop union at all?
Mr. TURNBULL. Most definitely, sir.

Mr. SPARKMAN. In other words, you would have three agencies. You would have the shop union representing the workers. Then you would have the foreman's union representing the foremen, and then the management?

Mr. TURNBULL. That would be my idea of the situation.

Mr. SPARKMAN. Well, now, suppose that the National Labor Relations Board should hold that the shop union being the most numerous would be the one to bargain for everybody then would you be willing for them

to become the bargaining agent for the foremen? Mr. TURNBULL. Well, candidly, I would not like to see that position arise but I will say this, if we had to accept it that way it is just like running a house, in my opinion, you have to have some boss of the house and if we are going to have one large family and have to have somebody hoss we will have to get over it the best way we can. My candid opinion would be we should remain as an independent organization and I have tried to carry out that policy in the work of our organization. I can assure you gentlemen not once since the start of this organization did I leave a department to start with to talk to a member or ask a member to join and not once did I communicate either written or orally with any member of the C. I. O. I do not think it is their business whether I am a member of an association or not. That is my business the same as their business is their organization. If they do their work or work for me as they should I will carry out my part so far as I am allowed by the contract with the company on my part of the company. Management is no concern of theirs at all. That is my opinion.

Mr. SPARKMAN. When you say your onion should be independent do you mean it should not become part of the C. I. O. or A. F. of L.?

Mr. TURNBULL. Absolutely that.

Mr. SPARKMAN. Well, what would you gain from that that you do not already have? You have a foremen's association now. Isn't that in a sense an independent union?

Mr. TURNBULL. And that is what we want it to remain as.
Mr. SPARKMAN. You want it to remain that way.
Mr. TURNBULL. Yes.

Mr. SPAKKMAN. Is it your contention this bill as it is now drawn would break up your Foreman's Association?

Mr. TURNBULL. It is not giving us the power to have collective bargaining in any way. We are tied up right now at the plant just for the simple reason they want to know what is coming of the Smith bill and the National Labor Relations Board case. Here we are what is under the law today, what we are privileged to do, go and bargain, we have been certified and the company says "No. The company is not carrying out the law. We are carrying it out. There is nothing more we can do but carry on and be patient. Sometimes it is a problem. Just yesterday afternoon in the plant, for instance, I happened to go to another department and another foreman stopped me, What are they doing in Washington? Are you getting any results?” “Only one thing, these things don't just develop in 1 minute; remain patient,” I said. He said, “The situation's getting hot.' I said, "You only think it is getting hot. The time will come. Go right on in the right way. We are going to conduct ourselves properly and we will get results, I am sure.

Mr. SPARKMAN. Does your organization take in only foremen?
Mr. TURNBULL. Yes.
Mr. SPARKMAN. Is the division manager above a foreman?
Mr. TURNBULL. The division manager is above a foreman.
Mr. SPARKMAN. Do you take in division managers?
Mr. TURNBULL. No; we do not take in division managers.
Mr. SPARKMAN. Do you have different grades of foremen?

Mr. TURNBULL. Yes; we have three grades, assistant foreman, foreman, and general foreman.

Mr. SPARKMAN. Are all of those included in your organization? Mr. TURNBULL. They are all included. Mr. SPARKMAN. Now, your foremen ordinarily come from the ranks of the workers, don't they?

Mr. TURNBULL. Ordinarily; yes.

Mr. SPARKMAN. Do your division managers come from the firm's ranks ordinarily?

Mr. TURNBULL. Well, no; they do not. I do not know of any think of that did come from the ranks, not one.

Mr. SPARKMAN. In other words, the workers ordinarily should stop at chief or head foremen?

Mr. TURNBULL. Yes; he would stop right there.

Mr. SPARKMAN. That then you think is the meeting point of management and workers? Mr. TURNBULL. That is just the point. The CHAIRMAN. That is, the management and foremen? Mr. TURNBULL. Yes. The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much.

Mr. TURNBULL. Mr. Chairman, before I leave you I would like to point out just one little thing to you.

The CHAIRMAN. All right, sir.

Mr. TURNBULL. As evidence of the sincerity of our members. Now a statement was made by Mr. Wilson, I read that myself, if this organization came into force production would drop and we would have to have a lot more supervision on the job. I would just like to show you one magazine. It is called Work to Win. This is put out by the company. This is a labor-management policy. It was put into force with the intention of increasing production throughout the plant and helping the war effort. It was got up to start with, we were not discussed on the subject at all and were not brought in on it, it was just brought out between the management superintendent and those in higher positions and the C. I. 0. union. However, we figured it was a splendid iden. We have done all we can to help this along.

I can

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They have one edition as a matter of fact that has the picture of four or five of our members of our association right in it. This man here has made an alteration in a machine that has put up production 60 percent. This man here has made an alteration that has quadrupled production on his machine. This man here has made a diamond do 18 cuttings instead of 2. This man here, I didn't mark it, I meant to, but he has also made an improvement that has vastly increased production of the war effort. On top of that you will see “War Production Board Award Winners" there. Just last week we had two more of our foremen that were awarded these citations. One suggestion was a suggestion to do away with the diamonds on grinding wheels in the department. He has managed to bring forward some suggestion that will save the company a matter of $150,000 in the course of a year. If that is anything as a rebuttal to Mr. Wilson I hope he reads these things.

Mr. HARNESS. How many foremen are there in the plant?
Mr. TURNBULL. 675.
Mr. HARNESS. How many have you got in your association?

Mr. TURNBULL. I say 675. Just in this last day or two we have a few more whom we did not know were eligible when the election came up-it runs 675. I do not know one foreman in that plant that is not a member of our association, not one foreman.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much,

Mr. Durham. The Labor Board has already certified you as a bargaining agent?

Mr. TURNBULL. Yes, after the election.
Mr. DURHAM. What date was that?
Mr. TURNBULL. I beg your pardon?
Mr. DURHAM. What was the date?
Mr. TURNBULL. Mr. Keys can tell you the exact date.

The CHAIRMAN. Is that what the controversy is about before the Labor Board down here? Let Mr. Nelson their general counsel answer that.

Mr. Nelson. Answering the gentleman's question, Mr. Chairman, the Packard chapter is not certified by the National Labor Relations Board. One hundred and thirty-two of these ballots are impounded and the seventh region chairman has not acted on this election. Frankly, right at the time of what we have described as a blast of publicity and the presentation of this bill interfered. And Mr. Turnbull's incorrect in saying they are certified. They have obviously sufficient votes and are in a splendid position to be certified with only two votes in opposition with nearly 700 foremen but certification has not followed. It has been held up and it will remain, of course, held up until there is some further authoritative definition of the word "employee” in the act and a determination as to whether foremen constitute a proper bargaining agency. I hope I make it perfectly clear.

Mr. Keys. They have just received certification, excluding certain general foremen.

Mr. NELSON. I did not know you had.

Mr. DURHAM. So far how many foremen's associations have they had certified by the Board throughout the country?

Mr. NELSON. I would not be able to answer that. Not more than two or three.

We

Mr. KEYS. Two; the Packard and Detroit Lubricator.

Mr. Nelson. By agreement, the Detroit Lubricator required no election and the Ford Motor Co. required no election.

I just want to say briefly of course we have submitted these witnesses on the issue made by the Smith bill as to the proper definition of the word "employee" and whether foremen constitute a proper bargaining agency. Those are the questions before the National Labor Relations Board. Unless this bill would interfere we would have every reason to believe that if we present proofs in any given case, as for instance, the Diesel Engine case was on for hearing this morning but we necessarily got an adjournment, we would be able to overwhelmingly prove our case before the Board but the Board, of course, is very touchy about the view of Congress, and properly so. recognize the Board is in an uncertain position as a court when the matter is before the Congress in its present form and when there is only one decision in the coal fo

men's case. The CHAIRMAN. We are glad to hear some board is considerate of Congress.

Mr. Nelson. They are keenly aware of your presence, Mr. Chairman. I have tried to argue with them before though I would like to get them in a more settled and judicial frame of mind if I can.

Mr. KEYS. Mr. Turnbull wanted to submit some letters from some foremen and the feeling they have towards the foremen's organization. May we submit these for the record?

The CHAIRMAN. Yes. The committee will meet tomorrow morning at 10 o'clock. (The following communications were submitted for the record:) My reason for joining the Foreman's Association of America is that I think it will show the management more fully our problems, through more discussions about them.

As general foreman of production control department, I deal with all general foremen, foremen and assistant foremen. My experience is that I get much more cooperation with these men since the Foreman's Union started and from past experience, I think it will remain so.

CHARLES E. MILLER, General Foreman, Production Control.

APRIL 6, 1943.

Why I JOINED THE FOREMAN'S ASSOCIATION 1. There was no pressure put on me to join. After talking to a few foremen and having convinced myself that this was not a radical organization, I applied for an application blank of my own free will.

2. There should be cooperation between “management and foremen" at all times on all fronts.

3. I have worked for, not at, Packard Motor a little over 8 years. I have been a supervisor, assistant foreman, and foreman in the past 7 years. The conditions in regard to wages have always been the same. If they lower your classification they immediately lower your wages. If they raise your classification, well, if you're lucky, in 6 months or a year you will receive the wages you are entitled to. This condition exists only in supervision. For the past 5 months I have had a foreman's rating, "not in wages, only in title.” When I ask for a raise all I can get is another alibi every time. The best one was when there was talk going around the shop about the Foreman's Association. I was told that nothing could be done now, but that there would be a “utopia” for all foremen soon. I have 94 men under me and my wages are equivalent to an assistant foreman. There are 2 men under me who should have assistant foreman ratings and wages, but it's the same old story, "wait a couple of weeks.”

I therefore, believe we need the Foreman's Association to protect the interests of all supervision, just as labor is protected by the C. I. O.

The purpose of the organization as I see it is to establish a better feeling and understanding between supervision and management.

We can do a much better job when we are satisfied, so let's pull together, not apart. Remember the supervisor was once a soldier of labor. "Let's give him a fair break.” Work to win.

E. GORDON, Packard Motor Car Co.

APRIL 6, 1943. FOREMAN'S ASSOCIATION OF AMERICA AND Why I BECAME A MEMBER I can truthfully state that no coercion in any form enticed me into its membership. After a careful purusal of its bylaws, I find that the above organization brings about a better mutual understanding between management and supervision.

With its bargaining committee we are able to discuss shop conditions and further the cause of better and higher production; also to classify a man immediately after he has been promoted to a higher supervision which does not exist at present.

Direct contact is very essential with management, as it enables the management to better understand the qualities of its supervision. Too many indirect channels divert the source, which is prevalent today. Our organization is the one source of direct contact. My 18 years of unbroken service with the Packard Motor Car Co. has definitely convinced me of its necessity. It is just as essential for the protection of its membership as other existing organization, such as the following manufacturing association, lawyers, doctors, dentists, bankers, and many other outstanding professions.

Any objection to this organization classes us as aliens, as it denies us the rights of other Americans in their organization.

WILLIAM BRADLEY,
Packard Motor Car Co.

After joining the Foreman's Association of America, I was introduced to a foreman who did the same type of work I was supervising. In one of our foremens gathering I discussed a problem I was having in my department with this man and this discussion led to a 25-percent raise in production on the particular part in question,

P. FRAEN.

over.

Before joining the Foreman's Association of America, I checked their business methods, also the officials of the association, and found that they would not stand for any radical methods. My reason for joining the association was not for material gain, as I am now 60 years of age and plan to retire as soon as the war is

I have been an assistant foreman and foreman for 13 years, and have been a general foreman for the past 20 years, 33 years in the same factory.

In my experience with top management, I find it impossible for the foremen to get a hearing individually, as I see it. They devote their plans to keeping the foreman's salary as low as possible, paying bonus to top management and dividends to stockholders. These conditions have been more common in the last 9 years. For this reason I feel that the foremen should be organized the same as any business group, such as doctors, lawyers, dentists, bankers, and even automobile manufacturers have an association.

I am certain the foremen can bargain with top management and get results in a business manner, due to the experience we have had in dealing with union labor in the past several years.

In order to get results in dealing with union labor, you have to be a diplomat as well as foreman. The association gives the foremen a chance to get together and discuss the problems and help each other in good management to help the war production.

JAMES R. WILKINS,

Packard Motor Car Co.

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