Mr. SMITH. They are part of management, and they can go to higher management at any time they want to and take up any problem they have.

Mr. PHILBIN. These snappers, you would not consider them part of management, would you?

Mr. SMITH. Those fellows are probably partially working with their tools.

Mr. PHILBIN. And you think that they are more closely related to the horny hand of labor?

Mr. SMITH. Those fellows work with their tools at times but in addition are supervisors comparable to a section boss, perhaps.

Mr. PHILBIN. He is just a little above the ordinary laborer. He is just above the ordinary laborer?

Mr. SMITH. A little above the mechanic or laborer.

Mr. PHILBIN. The work that he is doing and the wages that he receives?

Mr. SMITH. He gets a few cents an hour more.

Mr. PHILBIN. So that under the position that you take, you mean that he and men in his class would be barred from dealing collectively with the management?

Mr. SMITH. No. I say he is in the collective bargaining group already because he works with his tools a part of the time.

Mr. PHILBIN. He is already in the organization of laborers?
Mr. SMITH. Pretty generally.

Mr. PHILBIN. And everyone above him would be barred from dealing collectively with management?

Mr. SMITH. As I say, they are part of management, and have an opportunity to appear and present their problems at any time, as they always do.

Mr. PHILBIN. An opportunity to appear individually, but you do not want them to appear collectively.

I

Mr. SMITH. I have no objection to their coming up as a group. would not want them tied up with a group bargaining for the employees.

Mr. PHILBIN. I do not understand why you should object to these men designating some representative of their own choosing to bargain collectively with the employers for these grievances.

Mr. SMITH. Most of their problems differ in an average shipyard; as I tried to point out in my statement, there are 36 grades. You can take plumbers or pipefitters or electricians. Those are entirely distinct trades or operations from the other, and for the electrician there may be 1 foreman and 4 subforemen and there may be 50 leading men. You cannot tell. It depends upon the size of the department, but there is no big group who have the same problems.

Mr. HARNESS. I am very much interested in the question you just asked this witness. I do not think that any of these men from industry that have testified here have offered any objection to the foremen in the supervisory employees forming their own society or association through which they can discuss their own problems with management, but as the gentleman from Alabama, Mr. Sparkman, pointed out, under existing law and the decisions of the National Labor Relations Act, if they form their own bargaining agency it will immediately be

swallowed up by a union that has the bargaining rights because they can demand an election, and demand the right to bargain for a majority of those who vote for the union, so the result would be a total unionization of supervisory employees, along with the others, with no such bargaining unit for the supervisory employees.

Mr. PHILBIN. Whatever the result is, you have a substantial group of foremen who are without the normal rights of collective bargaining, or any organization therefor.

Mr. HARNESs. I do not think so. I think they still have the right under their association to bring their problems before management. Mr. PHILBIN. If they are not regarded as employees, they cannot avail themselves of the Wagner Act.

The CHAIRMAN. Any further questions of the witness?

Mr. HARNESS. Just a minute in that connection, Mr. Chairman. Did I state that thing as you understand it, Mr. Smith?

Mr. SMITH. Yes; you stated it as I understand it.

Mr. HARNESS. In other words, you have, as an employer of labor, no objection to an association ofsupervisory employees of your industry if it is an association and society that represents that particular group? Mr. SMITH. We have had for years among our foremen and supervisors, associations, little groups, and nobody objects to that, but the trouble is, just exactly as you have stated and has occurred in our industry in the Philadelphia district, when organized for collective bargaining purposes they have tied in with the bargaining agencies in the yard and have become a part of them.

Mr. HARNESS. Not because perhaps they wanted to, but because under the Labor Board decisions, they are forced to go into it because the other has the greater number, and they have the bargaining rights by virtue of the election.

Mr. SMITH. But in my opinion, as you have stated, if they are given, or recognized as a bargaining unit, the pressure for them to join with the big organization that may represent the employees in that plant is very great.

Mr. HARNESS. Not only pressure, but under the law they would have to.

Mr. SMITH. I am not so sure about that.

Mr. HARNESS. Under the decisions of the National Labor Relations Board they would have to amalgamate with the big union.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Costello.

Mr. COSTELLO. What is the average age of the workers in the shipyards, approximately?

Mr. SMITH. I will give you one figure. It will range from twenty to seventy-odd as a whole. In one of the plants employing 20,000 men, they gave me a figure, they said 85 percent of them were between 18 and 38 years of age.

Mr. COSTELLO. What are the averages, more or less, of the foremen, the average age?

Mr. SMITH. That will range all the way up. You take an apprentice that may be just out of his time, and he is a better trained man than many other men we can get, and he may be put in charge of a small group as a starter. He will be very efficient but young.

Mr. COSTELLO. The reason I asked that question, I would like to know whether the selective-service boards would get at any of your workers if this legislation is enacted.

Mr. SMITH. 85 percent are within the draft age. That is a big percentage.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Merritt.

Mr. MERRITT. If you have already answered this question, it is all right. I would like to know just what the men in the shipping industry get paid on an hourly basis, and what men receive on a monthly salary basis?

Mr. SMITH. That varies in the different plants, and I am unable to give you a percentage.

Mr. MERRITT. Where is the line usually drawn between salary and an hourly wage rate?

Mr. SMITH. Most of the office force, that is, clerical staff, foremen, subforemen and, in some cases, leading men are on a salary basis and in other cases not, so that it is impossible to give you an exact reply. Mr. MERRITT. Down to the subforemen they would work on a monthly basis?

Mr. SMITH. I would say pretty generally, yes; and in some plants technical employees are on a monthly basis and others are on an hourly basis.

Mr. ARENDS. Would you mind stating approximately the amount of monthly salary these foremen get? Within what range, the minimum and the maximum, in your particular industry?

Mr. SMITH. I do not know that I can give you that figure accurately. Mr. ARENDS. It does not have to be accurate, just approximately. Mr. SMITH. Let me give you one or two figures.

The average weekly wage of the employees in the industry in January of 1943 was $57.40. The average hourly earnings in the industry, $1.204, and the foremen of the various classes are on an upgrade above that, and it goes up pretty high when you get to the top foremen who are responsible for entire departments.

Mr. ARENDS. Does it go up as high as $400, $500, or $600 a month? Mr. SMITH. It will go up to $500 a monthly easily in many cases. Mr. ARENDS. Would you say the men on the monthly basis, from there on up to the top, are a part of management?

Mr. SMITH. I Would say that all supervisors are a part of manage

ment.

Mr. MERRITT. That is all the way down to the subforemen, or assistant foremen?

Mr. SMITH. And leading men.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Gathings, do you have any questions?

Mr. GATHINGS. No questions.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Elston.

Mr. ELSTON. I am interested in knowing when it was you first called attention to any agency of the Government of this rapid turnover of men and asked that something be done about it.

Mr. SMITH. We have been working on it steadily ever since it first began to appear.

Mr. ELSTON. When did it first begin to appear in any noticeable numbers?

Mr. SMITH. It began to be serious early in 1942, and it increased in seriousness during 1942, and it is still increasing in 1943.

Mr. ELSTON. Whom did you first take it up with?

Mr. SMITH. I have letters on file which were written to the Navy Department and the Maritime Commission and the War Manpower

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Commission. I do not remember when that War Production Board was created finally, but we have letters on file written to them. I made personal visits repeatedly to the Navy Department and the Maritime Commission and discussed the matter with them. Our people have constantly had the matter up in our individual yards in the same way and with our local draft officers, so that the situation is well known.

Mr. ELSTON. Was anything ever done that corrected the situation even to a slight degree?

Mr. SMITH. There have been efforts to help it, and it has been helped a little in some instances by throwing the deferment of certain groups into a later 6-month period instead of an earlier 6-month period. There has been some help in that respect, but it simply has put off the evil day.

Mr. ELSTON. Has there ever been any freezing of employment in the area in which you operate?

Mr. SMITH. There have been attempts to freeze the employment and not permit them to leave and go from one place to another without the approval of the local director of the Manpower Com

mission.

Mr. ELSTON. You say "attempts to do it." Have the attempts been successful?

Mr. SMITH. Not wholly. You cannot hold a man if he makes up his mind that he is going to leave. He will do it. He will take a number of days-it may be 4 days or 6 to get employment some place else, but he does not care; he will waste that length of time and show up somewhere else.

Mr. ELSTON. Then the freezing orders heretofore issued have not been very successful.

Mr. SMITH. I would say that they have been helpful, but they have not been wholly successful, by any means.

Mr. DURHAM. Have you so-called expediters in this industry?
Mr. SMITH. Expediters?

Mr. DURHAM. Yes.

Mr. SMITH. Yes.

Mr. DURHAM. As what do you classify them? Supervisory personnel?

Mr. SMITH. Supervisory staff.

Mr. DURHAM. We heard the testimony of a man in a supervisory position from one of the plants and he said that he was making less than the employees, so that is why they want to form this association and have a bargaining unit. Now, your supervisory personnel, if I understood you, is on a salary scale which is much higher than your lower employees. You have no such conditions as that existing?

Mr. SMITH. Well, if you are trying to tie it down to a particular classification like an expediter, I cannot give you the answer.

Mr. DURHAM. All of your supervisory personnel makes more money that your lower grade employee?

Mr. SMITH. Yes; they are on an upgrade, and you have to do that, of course.

Mr. DURHAM. For instance, we had one gentleman here that appeared before us who said that he made 75 cents on Sunday and that the man employed made $27.

The CHAIRMAN. That is due to this double pay and overtime for Sunday.

Mr. SMITH. You might get an instance, yes. A man may work 7 complete days in 1 week, but he may not work but part time the next week.

Mr. DURHAM. That supervisory personnel is paid on a straight daily wage, or monthly wage?

Mr. SMITH. As I stated, some of them are on a monthly scale and others are on an hourly wage.

Mr. DURHAM. If I understand you correctly

Mr. SMITH. The bulk of them are on a monthly wage, or a salary basis.

Mr. ELSTON. What are your hours of employment?

Mr. SMITH. For the month of January of this year it averaged 47.3 per week, and if you take account of the lost time due to bad weather and absenteeism, the actual working hours of those who put in full time will be well above 48.

Mr. ELSTON. What has been your absenteeism record? Mr. SMITH. It is not too good by any means. It is higher than it should be. It is double what it was in peacetime, and it has been one of our many problems with which we are confronted, and there are many reasons why a man is recognized to be away from the plantbecause of a compelling reason, stormy weather, and a long distance from the plant, sickness-many things that keep him away-but it is safe to say that the percentage of absenteeism is too high.

The CHAIRMAN. Let me make this statement. Our next witness here is a member of the War Labor Board and also vice president of the United Auto Workers, C. I. O., and he has to be back to his board. meeting, and he wants to get rid of this witness.

Mr. HARNESS. I am glad to know that. Perhaps he can answer this question I am about to ask.

It was brought to my attention by some of the heads of industry that they had been unable to give their foremen who are on a monthly salary basis an increase in wages because of the rulings of the War Labor Board which had caused some dissension among their supervisory employees. Have you had any such trouble with the War Labor Board in trying to get an increase?

Mr. SMITH. I asked that specific question of some of our people, and they have told me they have had practically no trouble in that respect, that their feeling is there are sufficient reasons, until this order of yesterday, by which adjustments can be made to take care of natural promotions, and an increased responsibility and other situations, so that we have had very little trouble in that respect.

The CHAIRMAN. There are two general questions that I would like to ask Mr. Smith.

When one of your companies takes a contract to build ships for the Government your corporation immediately assumes responsibility for the performance of that contract on time; does it not?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir; when the signature is on the contract, then the company is responsible for carrying it out.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes; now, how do you do that other than through the management in your plant?

Mr. SMITH. It is the only way you can do it, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Are the foremen exactly responsible for that, and are they actually required to do that in the performance of their duties?