The CHAIRMAN. In other words, there are certain things he can do and determine finally, and there are certain other things that have to go up to a higher man?

Mr. STAFFORD. In other words, the things that do not mean anything a foreman can sign.

It was stated March 31 before you gentlemen that foreman and assistant foreman of the Timken Detroit Axle Co. could not have collective bargaining because we settle grievances of our men and, therefore, help to expedite the work and a new stratum of men would have to be put in above the foreman for the purpose of handling these grievances which would complicate the handling of them and cut down the time, and waste manpower.

The grievance procedure at our plant is worked in this manner: When a steward presents the foreman with a written grievance the foreman writes his answer on the back of the grievance and then turns it over to the general foreman, who in turn sends it to Mr. Cole, labor-relations agent, and then it is taken up at the next union meet

ing.

The only time a foreman makes a decision is when it is a minor case and not in written form.

I would like to express the views of the foremen of Timken and why collective bargaining is the only solution by which foremen can ever expect to get an even break, and also point out things which have happened in the past. If they had not happened we would not need collective bargaining at the present time.

A few years ago salaried foremen were told to take 1 day off per week without pay and this was based on a 40-hour per workweek. Now when they pay overtime, our salary is based on a 47%1⁄2-hour per workweek. Before we get overtime pay and the overtime pay is paid once a month, if we accumulate overtime for the first 3 weeks of the month and are absent from work during the fourth week of the month, due to sickness, we lose all our overtime pay. That is the reason, possibly, it is not paid each week the same as other employees receive their overtime pay, and over pay is based on a straight hourly

rate.

It has been the policy of the company to give all salaried employees 2 weeks vacation with pay. The past year we were told to take 1 week vacation with pay while other salaried help received 1 week vacation, but were reimbursed with 2 weeks pay, while we only received 1.

In other words, they came around to us last year and they told us that they were so busy that they needed the tools and they needed the equipment at the front and they asked us if we would give up a week's vacation with pay. We said we would gladly give up 2 weeks. They said "No," they only wanted one. They said, "We are busy. We need you." We gave them 2 weeks' vacation. As if that was not enough, they took a week's vacation away from us, and if they had given us the pay it would not look so bad. They took our pay off of us.

Practically all departments of Timken, the man on the bench or machine, has a larger weekly earning than the foreman or assistant foreman. The class A job setter in 47 hours per week will earn $65.75, while his foreman's pay for 47 hours would range from $60 to $65. So the man making a larger weekly income than the foreman receives his through collective bargaining, of which we do not have.

We, as foremen, do not have security on our jobs and can be discharged any time the management sees fit to do so, and I have seen a great number discharged during my 22 years service.

Since the foreman of Timken joined the Foremen's Association, the management admitted we were underpaid and took steps to rectify their error by asking for an adjustment of our wages which is at the present time, here in Washington. It just came down here 3 weeks ago since we were in this association.

But this oversight was brought to their attention time after time by individual foremen. For example, a month ago a foreman went into an assistant superintendent's office and asked him if he could get a little raise. He said it was tough to get along on what he was getting. He got the answer that the rest get, "If you don't like it, you can quit.'

But this oversight was brought to their attention time after time by an individual foreman. But no action was taken until they were informed by the Foremen's Association of America that 98 percent of the foremen of Timken had chosen them as their bargaining agent.

Now, 98 percent of the foremen of Timken, I am talking about the foremen of Timken, not 1 year or 2 years or 3 years experience, I am talking of the foremen with 5 to 30 years of service. They will average 15 years at the Timken Detroit Axle Co. That is, if you take them all in a group. These foremen were so down in their morale that they ran around looking for someone to get them organized so they could get collective bargaining. And we heard of the Foremen's Association and we got in touch with them. Now, to show you how discouraged the foremen were at the Timken in 2 weeks' time, 98 percent of those foremen signed up in this association.

In closing, gentlemen, if the Smith bill is passed we foremen and assistant foremen would be the forgotten men of labor and consequently the Manufacturers Association would, without a doubt, discharge everyone of us foremen who, as American citizens, believe in freedom of speech, and freedom of assembly.

I thank you.

The CHAIRMAN. Are there any questions?

Mr. FENTON. Mr. Stafford, you have been a foreman for 7 years? Mr. STAFFORD. Yes, sir.

Mr. FENTON. Were you a member of the union before that?

Mr. STAFFORD. No, sir. When I went in as a foreman the C. I. O. was just coming in there. In fact, while they were out on strike I was home and when I went back in I went in as a foreman. I was in no other union before this association.

Mr. FENTON. You feel that your relationship would be more cordial with the company if you could meet with the officials and talk with them about your various problems rather than doing it individually?

Mr. STAFFORD. I know that we could. If we foremen go in and ask for more money today it does not mean a thing. When we got in this association, to show you how they work, when we got in this association as soon as they heard we were in this they told us fellows in a group that we were underpaid and they were looking into it. And they did look into it. And you have it right here in Washington right now for us salaried foremen for an increase.

Mr. FENTON. The reason I ask that question is that I did not have a chance to ask the previous witness who I believe was a member of an organization before he became a foreman, and gathering from what

he said and analyzing his testimony I believe that he feels also that bargaining collectively was much preferable than to go in there individually and probably receive an answer, "If you do not like it, you can do the other thing." That is what I was interested in. I was just wondering whether or not you had that same experience.

Mr. STAFFORD. Yes, sir. Now, another thing, as soon as us foremen were organized, when one of the foremen needs something from another department we call that foreman and he pushes it. There is more harmony between the foremen right now. I know that if we had collective bargaining we could go up there and talk to them and get a square deal. That is all we want. We want to get a little above what our men are making. We are not getting what our men are making. I have a man working for me that made around $4,300 last year and I put in more hours than that man did, and I made $600 and $700 less than he did. Now, you know we do not like to be over the men and have them throw their pay check in our face that they are making more money that we do.

Mr. FENTON. You do not feel that the war effort would be hindered in any way?

Mr. STAFFORD. Well, in my personal opinion, and I have been in the plant for 23 years, I am telling you right now if we had this it would not be hindered and it would be pushed. I myself have a boy in the service right now.

Mr. FENTON. That is all.

Mr. JOHNSON. How many are there in your plant?

Mr. STAFFORD. Of foremen and assistant foremen in our plant, I am only going to guess

Mr. JOHNSON. Just give an approximate number.

Mr. STAFFORD. I would say there are 260 foremen, and I would say that we had 255 of those foremen in our association.

Mr. JOHNSON. Now, do they have those foremen classified into groups, that is, the men who are working 5 years and the men who are working 10 years, and so forth?

Mr. STAFFORD. No, sir.

Mr. JOHNSON. They are not classified any way at all?

Mr. STAFFORD. No; you have men who are new foremen. You have a new foreman who went in two weeks ago in our factory. I am there 7 years and I am getting $63.50 a week and he came right from down in the ranks and he gets $65 a week. Do you think that is fair?

Mr. JOHNSON. I do not want to pass on that. I just want to get the facts from you. Is there any classification of foremen in wage groups, that is, one group getting so much a week and another group getting so much a week?

Mr. STAFFORD. No. You have salaried foremen that run from $50 a week and the top I know is $67.50 a week.

Mr. JOHNSON. Is the pay dependent on the kind of job the foreman has?

Mr. STAFFORD. Well, possibly yes; because the $50 a week foreman is a foreman that is over the sweepers, let us say. When you are in a machine shop and you have a heavy production they get possibly $67.50 a week, but I will tell you right now there are very few in our plant right now who are getting $67.50 a week.

Mr. JOHNSON. How many men do you have working under you, for instance?

Mr. STAFFORD. When we are going full I have around 50 or 60 men, and I have 3 assistants, but not at the present time. We are not that busy. I have very few men now.

Mr. JOHNSON. Now, during the 7 years that you have been there I understand the general method on the part of the foreman was something like this. If you felt that you ought to get an increase in pay you went to the assistant superintendent?

Mr. STAFFORD. We went to the assistant superintendent. But they are afraid to go and ask for a raise.

Mr. JOHNSON. Just let me bring out the facts. We want to get this in the record so that we can read it later on. Then you would go there individually and you would speak for yourself, would you? Mr. STAFFORD. That is right.

Mr. JOHNSON. You would not speak for anybody else?

Mr. STAFFORD. No, sir. We would be speaking for ourselves.

Mr. JOHNSON. And then what would be done, it would be sent to somebody higher up?

Mr. STAFFORD. He would have to ask the assistant superintendent. Mr. JOHNSON. Does he have the power to increase your pay? Mr. STAFFORD. No. All he can do is make out a slip and then he sends it to the superintendent.

Mr. JOHNSON. He can recommend it?

Mr. STAFFORD. He can recommend it.

Mr. JOHNSON. Or he can recommend against it?

Mr. STAFFORD. That is right.

Mr. JOHNSON. Now, was the same scheme applied to all of the 250 foremen, is that the same scheme they had to operate under if they wanted to get a change in conditions or an increase in their pay?

Mr. STAFFORD. They all had to do the same thing. We had to go up one at a time.

Mr. JOHNSON. During the seven years that you have been familiar with this, did you have any association of foremen?

Mr. STAFFORD. We had no association and no intention of getting an association until December.

Mr. JOHNSON. Did you have any group that you could talk over a wage increase or work conditions in general?

Mr. STAFFORD. No, sir. We never had any association and never thought of any.

Mr. JOHNSON. Suppose you had what you thought was a legitimate grievance over conditions, not wages but conditions, how would you get that wrinkled out with the employer?

Mr. STAFFORD. I went up to the assistant superintendent and all the other foremen did individually, one at a time.

Mr. JOHNSON. The same as you did with reference to wages, you went there alone?

Mr. STAFFORD. Yes.

Mr. JOHNSON. When was this plant unionized?

Mr. STAFFORD. We started to organize

Mr. JOHNSON (interposing). I do not mean the foremen; I mean the workingmen.

Mr. STAFFORD. I think it was 7 years ago.

Mr. JOHNSON. That would be 1936?

Mr. STAFFORD. I went on as a foreman when that came in.

Mr. JOHNSON. Now, of course at that time you were familiar with the wage scale of the various types of workingmen?

Mr. STAFFORD. In what way?

Mr. JOHNSON. You knew what they got?

Mr. STAFFORD. I never belonged to a union before this.

Mr. JOHNSON. It is not a matter of a union. Do you know what the workmen were being paid?

Mr. STAFFORD. I know what my men were being paid; yes, sir. Mr. JOHNSON. After they were unionized was it your observation that the men got more pay?

Mr. STAFFORD. They do; right today.

Mr. JOHNSON. In other words, you were there watching those men who were unionized and you began to realize that after they organized they got a little more money?

Mr. STAFFORD. That is right.

Mr. JOHNSON. Now, were the working conditions changed any? Mr. STAFFORD. For the men?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.

Mr. STAFFORD. Well, the working conditions were not changed, but they got collective bargaining and got it through that.

Mr. JOHNSON. What I am trying to bring out is, that they got better conditions?

Mr. STAFFORD. They got better conditions in the plant.

Mr. JOHNSON. And by that, are you referring to vacation with pay, for instance?

Mr. STAFFORD. Our vacation with pay?

Mr. JOHNSON. I mean of the men. I want to see what the reaction was among these men.

Mr. STAFFORD. The men never got vacation with pay before.
Mr. JOHNSON. Until when?

Mr. STAFFORD. Until they had collective bargaining and then they got 1-week vacation with pay.

Mr. JOHNSON. When those men got this increase, didn't that raise in your mind the thought that maybe you were entitled to an increase? Mr. STAFFORD. It was in anybody's mind. When you see the men going up ahead of the foreman

Mr. JOHNSON. Did you go and ask for a raise?

Mr. STAFFORD. Did we ask for a raise?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.

Mr. STAFFORD. Absolutely.

Mr. JOHNSON. How recently?

Mr. STAFFORD. I think since 1941 we got $2.50 a week raise.
Mr. JOHNSON. Since 1941?

Mr. STAFFORD. Yes.

Mr. JOHNSON. Did you get any after 1936?

Mr. STAFFORD. Yes; they brought our wages up whenever they raised the union scale and they brought us right up about like that as foremen so we would be up in near that.

Mr. JOHNSON. As the men went up, you went up, too?

Mr. STAFFORD. Yes; they kept us up near that.

Mr. JOHNSON. As I get your viewpoint, it is this: You feel, the 250 men, yourself and your associates could fare better with your employer if you had one man to speak for the whole 250 of you?`

Mr. STAFFORD. If we had our committee there of three men to go up there and talk to them and they would talk to us about the things