and that I can talk about intelligently. I know very little about other companies.

The CHAIRMAN. All right; you can confine your statement to that. Mr. DILLER. The last week of March-that is when we had our 75 percent of the foremen organized-one of the foremen on the midnight shift was called on the telephone by his general foreman and told that he was fired. No; he told him not to come in to work that night. The foreman asked why. "Well," he said, "the fact of the matter is you are through." So he stayed off from work that night and got in contact with me. So I told him, or the committee told him, that the best thing he could do was the next night to go back in to work. That was Sunday night that he went back in to work and, on Monday morning, he stepped over to the superintendent to find out why he was fired, or if he was fired, and the superintendent told him he approved of him being fired, but not in that method; that he should come in the next morning and be fired officially.

That same morning, the vice president of our outfit and myself went in to see the director of labor relations of our division, and we told him about the case and he said he knew nothing about it; that he would look into it and if the man was to be fired that he would be fired, if there was any reason to fire him; and, if there was not, that he would not be fired. So the next morning this man went in to get fired officially and his superintendent told him, "Just forget all about it; just go back to work.”

That is one example to prove that management does not even know what is happening to the foremen.

If a

Mr. Wilson's statement that we make 75 percent more than the men that work under us should be proof that they have forgotten about us, because they do not even look after us, because we cannot push them, we cannot make them look after us. We are there and it is very hard to get off of a foreman's job. Prior to March 1, you could not get off of a foreman's job. The talk around the shop was that a foreman had only two moves to make, that is, either up or out. man did not make out as a foreman, he was not taken back and put on the job; he was fired. I had the case of a foreman working for me as assistant foreman. That man was very conscientious and a very hard worker, but he just was not a very good foreman. I did not feel right about going into the superintendent's office and telling them I thought the man was not a good foreman, that he could not run his end of the department efficiently, because I knew, if I did, that man would get fired. But since then, since we have organized, they have recognized us. They claim they do not know of anybody having made the statement if a man should be taken off of supervision that he would be fired, and since then I went in and told them about this man, and he was put on another job and, since then, he is doing much nicer; he is doing things that he can do.

The foremen feel if they can have an organization where they can go and talk over their troubles with their management, there would be much more harmony. Where you have a group of men that have no representation at all with management, you have one man cutting another man's throat, trying to get in good with the boss, and that does not work out-one shift trying to beat another shift. You can see they won't try to help the other shift out; because if they can hold the other shift down, it makes it better looking on their record. But since we announced we have an association, the shop management

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say to us they are very glad for us to get together, they think we need it [laughter], and we have had an elaborate banquet and had a nice dinner, a nice band, a nice orchestra. The foremen are treated much differently, a whole lot differently now; they are treated with respect. And, for myself, I do not think it was so much management that did not want us to be treated with respect; it was the shortcomings of this part of managment, of this committee that is trying to find out whether we are to have that opportunity or not; it is the superintendents that are afraid of sitting across the bargaining table with the employees' committee. We have long ago proven that, in fact, the employees know more about the policies that are formulated; they know those policies before we do, because their committeemen will come before those meetings and tell these people what they are, and we do not know until we are handed this letter, when they put them in written form and give then to us and tell us they are the policies, and we carry them out.

Mr. MERRITT. What are your functions for the company? You tell us what you do not do; tell us something that you do do that the company wants you to do.

Mr. DILLER. My job as foreman, that will best tell you about what the foremen of the company do-I was in a department where the department was divided into four parts, and each section had what was called an assistant foreman. My job was just to see that this department maintained production and ran efficiently, and to help these assistant foremen when they needed help.

In regard to the grievance procedure, the only part we have to do with that, when an employee has a grievance he calls the committeeman, asks the foreman for a committeeman, and he gets the committeeman for him, and that committeeman comes over there and, if he cannot settle the dispute with the foreman and the fellow the committeeman will write up the grievance, put it in written form, and on the back of this grievance it says "Foreman's disposition," and the only thing the foreman puts on that disposition is the evidence surrounding the case, so that management will not have to come out and go through that case, so that they can read off what really happened. Does that answer your question?

The CHAIRMAN. Yes; now, may I interrupt here? It is now 12:20 by that clock, but it is wrong; it is a quarter after 12. I am very sorry that so much time was taken of the foremen's organization this morning, and in order to give them a chance so that they won't have to go back and forth from their homes here, I would like to continue the hearings this afternoon as long as we possibly can. That, of course, is conditioned upon what the procedure is on the floor of the House. I think, however, the committee in their desire, of course, to accommodate this gentleman, could meet again about 2 o'clock and proceed with his testimony, and you can resume your testimony at that time.

Mr. HARNESS. Mr. Chairman, why cannot we finish with this witness right now.

The CHAIRMAN. That is agreeable to me and I would be very happy to do it if he wants to get through. Can you finish in fifteen or twenty minutes?

Mr. DILLER. The main thing I want to do is to answer any questions you have. I really do not know what you want to know. Anything you want to know that I can answer, I will be glad to do.

The CHAIRMAN. I would like to ask just two or three questions. Were you an employee in a labor union before you became foreman of this Diesel plant?

Mr. DILLER. Was I a member of a labor union?

The CHAIRMAN. Yes.

Mr. DILLER. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. And you worked in that plant as such until you attained such proficiency that the company was willing to take you in as foreman?

Mr. DILLER. Yes, sir; I worked as a machine operator, then job setter, then assistant foreman, then foreman. When I became assistant foreman, I got a withdrawal from the U. A. W., C. I. O.

The CHAIRMAN. In other words, you severed your relation with labor when you became foreman?

Mr. DILLER. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Now, are you on a salary basis, or on a day basis, so far as your pay is concerned?

Mr. DILLER. After the 15th of March foremen went on a salary. That was immediately after we announced the association to the company. Prior to that, we were on an hourly rated basis, just the same as the employees. If we worked Sunday, we got double time. If we work Sunday now, we work on our own hook.

The CHAIRMAN. Now, when you came to determine the question for yourself as to whether you would remain in the local union of workers, or become an employee of the company in the sense of being one of the supervisory force, did you contact the employment agent and deal with him and settle and agree upon your compensation before you went in, or was there a fixed schedule which you accepted? Mr. DILLER. You mean did I contact the company?

The CHAIRMAN. Yes, when you changed from a worker in the plant to a supervisory employee, to that capacity of assistant foreman, did you confer with the company officials or somebody representing them, as to what your compensation should be?

Mr. DILLER. No, sir. When I became assistant foreman, my general foreman told me the next night I was to start midnights and would be assistant foreman. That is the only conversation I had. The CHAIRMAN. Well, was there any change in your pay?

Mr. DILLER. Not immediately. Pay raises did come quite regularly; well, there were two or three of them that did come, up to the minimum rate.

The CHAIRMAN. You were still on an hourly basis, or monthly basis?

Mr. DILLER. No; an hourly basis. All foremen up to the general foremen, which are over these departments in all three shifts, prior to the association, were on an hourly rated basis, the same as the employees. We got paid on the same date and in the same way, and everything.

Mr. MARTIN. What is the average age of foremen in your plant? Mr. DILLER. The average age?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. DILLER. Well, I can just take a guess at that. I would say the average age would be between 30 and 35, possibly.

Mr. MARTIN. Are they generally deferred from selective service on an occupational basis?

Mr. DILLER. Well, I cannot say as to that. I can tell you my own draft status, if that will help you. I am deferred on an occupational basis. My draft classification is 2-B. I have been deferred for 2 years now and, up until last fall, I had absolutely no dependents at all. So my draft classification was strictly an occupational deferment. Mr. MARTIN. And that is the case at this time?

Mr. DILLER. Yes.

Mr. MARTIN. This bill provides that if you continue your activities in the organization and collective bargaining your deferred status will be taken from you?

Mr. DILLER. That is right.

Mr. MARTIN. What will be the general effect upon your plant, the plant in which you are working, if this bill results in a general legislating into the armed forces of the foremen?

Mr. DILLER. You mean what would happen to the plant?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes; if your foremen were taken out and placed into the armed forces?

Mr. DILLER. Why, if it was done on a wholesale scale, I imagine there would be quite a bit

The CHAIRMAN. Of shut-down, would there not?

Mr. DILLER. Well, yes. We have so many new employees and women working in the shops that the foremen are needed there. There are not the men around now to make foremen that there were a few years ago, and, if they would do it on a wholesale scale, I imagine it would be very bad.

Mr. MARTIN. Now, in your organization you have just been functioning during the last month as an association or organization as now formed?

Mr. DILLER. That is correct.

Mr. MARTIN. In that time, have you had occasion to enter into very many dealings with ownership or management regarding the well-being of your foremen?

Mr. DILLER. No.

Mr. MARTIN. You have not had many cases?

Mr. DILLER. NO. As soon as we announced we were organized and would like to deal collectively, the plant manager held a meeting and told all of the foremen that they absolutely could not be foremen and belong to the association, and they absolutely would not recognize it and, if we wanted to belong to an association, we would have to go back on our jobs. And that was the first time it was ever indicated that foremen could go back on their former jobs, or go back on a job. Mr. MARTIN. When was that?

Mr. DILLER. That was on the 27th of February—no

The CHAIRMAN. March?

Mr. DILLER. No; it was at the first of March-about the 1st of March.

Mr. MARTIN. But you have continued in your foremen's association?

Mr. DILLER. I have continued in it?

Mr. MARTIN. You have continued in the association?

Mr. DILLER. Yes, sir.

Mr. MARTIN. And nothing more has been done about that?

Mr. DILLER. No. I mean we were very careful not to stir up any trouble or any dissension. In fact, we did not even want the employees to know we were organized. We wanted to deal with management

on these problems. You see, the foremen's problems only get as high as the superintendent. If I have a problem, as when the superintendent told me I had an inferiority complex, that is all that bothered me. That did not satisfy me. If I were to have taken that across the street into the main office, into the labor relations director, or to the plant manager, no doubt I would have gotten a response on it, and no doubt that superintendent would have been called down on it. Also, this man I saw there would forget about it in a month or so, but the superintendent would not, and I would be on the spot from now on unless I had a body of men behind me so the superintendent knew he could not push me around.

Mr. MARTIN. In your dealings of the association of foremen, you have not had any difficulty in your dealings with management or ownership, as yet?

Mr. DILLER. As a foreman?

Mr. MARTIN. As an organization of foremen.

Mr. DILLER. Well, we were just told that they cannot deal with us, and we just declined then and petitioned the National Labor Relations Board for an election.

Mr. MARTIN. And that is as far as you have gotten so far?

Mr. DILLER. Yes, sir.

Mr. NELSON. Mr. Chairman, may I inform the Congressman that petition was set for hearing next Monday.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes.

Mr. GATHINGS. How much were you making just prior to being elevated to the position of assistant foreman?

Mr. DILLER. I was making a dollar-could I hear that question again?

Mr. GATHINGS. How much were you making prior to your being appointed as assistant foreman?

Mr. DILLER. I was making $1.24 an hour.

Mr. GATHINGS. You have had two or three raises since that time, have you not?

Mr. DILLER. Yes.

Mr. GATHINGS. Within the last year?

Mr. DILLER. Yes.

Mr. GATHINGS. What were those raises in the hourly wage? Mr. DILLER. The raises came at 5 cents an hour. For the department that I was in the top rate for an assistant foreman was $1.39 an hour and the top rate for foreman was $1.49. Now, usually throughout the shops there is a difference of 10 cents an hour from the minimum rate to the top rate. When an employee on a machine goes from one group to another group, say from a drill press group to a lathe group, he immediately goes to the minimum rate, and thereafter, if his foreman sees fit to give him a merit rating, he is increased to the top rate as fast as the foreman wants to put in a recommendation for his wages. If the superintendent approves of it the wages will go in, but with the foreman it is different. The foremen were held at their minimum rate, and sometimes they were held below the minimum rate for months. There was no time limit set there. For the employees, it is 3 months, regardless of even the foreman, and even if the superintendent feels that a person is not worth a raise, in 3 months they go on up there to the top rate. We have no set-up

like that.