Mr. KINCHELOE. I was wondering what sort of a law they could use on a man on his own private property to tell him what he should do or what he should not do.

Mr. LEACH. They tell the owner of the land that the fish belong to the public, that they are public property, and if they will not permit either the state bureau or our bureau to salvage the fish they will have to do it themselves.

Mr. KINCHELOE. I can understand how they will tell them that, but I do not know how they could enforce it.

Mr. LEACH. They put through a bluff but they get there just the

same.

Mr. KINCHELOE. They have bluffs on both sides of the river then? Mr. LEACH. Yes, sir. I want to say something about the value of these fish. From Rock Island here, to Lake Peppen, $500,000 was paid to the fishermen last year for their fish.

Mr. DILG. That represented food fish.

Mr. LEACH. Yes. We rescued in 1923 140,000,000 fish ranging from 24 to 4 or 5 inches, costing us about $30,000, and if bought from commercial dealers they would have cost about $4,000,000.

Mr. KINCHELOE. You said a while ago that these fish that you take out of the landlocked pools you distribute 50 per cent to supply these requests and 50 per cent put back into the river. I was wondering if this bill became a law, and the Government should own that section, if that would be the policy of the bureau?

Mr. LEACH. It certainly will.

Mr. KINCHELOE. The policy will be to throw that many back in the river?

Mr. LEACH. We will still do that.

Mr. KINCHELOE. I was under the impression that probably it would be better for the bureau to take the whole 100 per cent and supply some of these fellows that are asking for fish.

Mr. DILG. If you did that, you wouldn't have any breeders.

Mr. LEACH. We have got to put enough back to perpetuate the stock. We have got to keep a certain amount of them coming along. Mr. KINCHELOE. Do these fish spawn any in the bed of the river? Mr. LEACH. No, sir; not as a rule. They seek the overflow lands. That is about the only place in which they can spawn. In 1914 we rescued 7,000,000 fish from the upper Mississippi River. We have rescued a total of 177,510,000. We reached the high total of 177.510,000 in 1921, and in 1923 we rescued 140,000,000. You understand that climatic conditions and the stage of the river govern our rescue operations to a great extent. Sometimes more of these pools are available, if the river reaches higher stages; that means more pools; when it reaches only a 12-foot stage there are less pools in which the fish can be salvaged. Out of that 140,000,000 we have distributed to applicants 1,164,000 food fish-to 5,000 applicants residing in 32 States. They were distributed from the Rocky Mountains in the West to Texas and Mississippi, and as far east as Massachusetts. About 3.500 of the applicants lived in the Mississippi Valley, and they received about 75 per cent of the fish that we distributed.

Mr. KINCHELOE. What were those figures?

Mr. LEACH. We rescued 140,000,000 fish. We distributed to 5.000 applicants 1.164,000, and out of the 5.000 applicants 3 500 of them lived in the Mississippi Valley.

Mr. VOIGT. What became of the rest of the fish that were rescued? Mr. LEACH. They were put back in the main river: 39.000.000 were placed back in the main river. Now, while these States on the Mississippi River are primarily agricultural States, the farmers realize that they have a great deal of land that is of no value for raising crops. They have been making dikes and ponds, running anywhere from 1 acre to 5 or 6 acres and have been stocking these ponds with fish. Now, a great many dams have been constructed in rivers that flow into the Missippi River, and fish that formerly ran from the Mississippi River up to those streams for purposes of spawning, can not ascend the streams, can not get over the dams, and are cut off. If it were not for the work of the bureau and of the States in salvaging those fishes and distributing them in the water above the dams, the rivers would soon be depleted.

Mr. KINCHELOE. Do you distribute the fish in any of those rivers. that have these dams built in them?

Mr. LEACH. Yes. The Des Moines River in Iowa, the Wisconsin River, and several others.

Mr. KINCHELOE. How many hatcheries in the United States can produce black bass?

Mr. LEACH. About 16 hatcheries that we have scattered all over the United States. They are located from Texas to the Atlantic Coast, one in Arkansas, one in Missouri, and one in Kentucky.

Mr. KINCHELOE. I was just going to ask you if you produced black bass in the hatchery at Louisville.

Mr. LEACH. Yes; black bass, sunfish, catfish, etc. The total area of our hatcheries represents possibly 100 acres for the 16 hatcheries. Allowing about 20 female bass to an acre of water, each bass will produce on an average a thousand young fish. Our hatcheries are therefore limited, and are more or less expensive to operate. However, they are located so that we can make distribution cheaply. You are acquainted with the Louisville hatchery; we distribute fish from there to Tennessee. Kentucky. Indiana, and southeastern Ohio. If we tried to bring those fish to those places from the Mississippi River the cost of transportation would be greater than the cost of producing them at Louisville. Therefore, these hatcheries up on the upper Mississippi are very essential. We rescued those 140.000,000 fish for the small sum of 183 cents a thousand.

Mr. JOHNSON. You say you only have 100 acres now that you use for hatching purposes?

Mr. LEACH. Yes.

Mr. JOHNSON. If the Government should acquire this land up there you would have a much larger area in which to hatch fish. Mr. LEACH. That is the point I was going to bring out.

Mr. JOHNSON. You would have a much larger area there comparatively speaking, than what you have now?

Mr. LEACH. Yes. There are a great number of sloughs in there that can be utilized.

Mr. JOHNSON. Natural sloughs?

Mr. LEACH. Yes, natural sloughs that could be utilized for hatcheries. There is one lake. for instance, near Winona, which covers

600 acres.

We could stock that lake at the same rate that we stock our hatcheries, say 20 female bass to the acre, each fish producing, we will say 1.000 young. That would mean something like about 12,000 000 fish, which would be more than the hatcheries are producing.

Mr. JOHNSON. And wouldn't that be cheaper than operating the hatcheries?

Mr. LEACH. It would be a great deal cheaper, because it would need only one crew of probably five men. The 16 hatcheries are now operated with 75 or 80 men. However, you must not lose sight of the fact that these hatcheries are necessary, because they are located where the demand for fish is great and where we could not ship the fish in from other places because of the expense. Then, of course, the demand for fish is increasing, especially in the upper Mississippi Valley. There is a great demand from all classes of people up there that have any land at all on which they can construct ponds. They want the fish. When we are not able to supply the fish. then they write to you folks that the Bureau of Fisheries will not fill their applications. We haven't the fish to give them. We have to put 50 per cent back in the river and the other 50 per cent we have to distribute around among some 5 000 applicants.

Mr. CLARKE. What do the States do in the way of supplying fish? Haven't some of them conservation commissions?

Mr. LEACH. All the different States are now propagating fish, practically all of them. They are trying to aid the bureau in this work. For instance, the State of New York is probably spending as much money on its interior fishes as we are spending throughout the United States. Pennsylvania is spending more money on their interior fishes than we are spending throughout the United States.

Mr. CLARKE. I am refering particularly to these States of Wisconsin, Iowa, and Illinois. and Minnesota.

Mr. LEACH. The States of Wisconsin. Iowa, Illinois and Minnesota, the four States, are spending more money on their fisheries than the United States is spending, including commercial fishes. Last year we made 35 trips from the upper Mississippi River at La Crosse and distributed fish all throughout the country.

Mr. KINCHELOE. About what per cent of these low land places, where these fish are caught, would be included in this section if that land is bought?

Mr. LEACH. I suppose it would include practically all of that, as I understand the bill. all of the land subject to overflow. It would increase our activities greatly. We are only working about 60 per cent of the area now. If it were taken over by the Government we should of course expect to operate over all of it.

Mr. KINCHELOE. It would cover your present activities and 40 per cent more?

Mr. LEACH. Forty per cent more.

Mr. RUBEY. What is the State of Missouri doing along that line? Mr. LEACH. It is not doing very much because of the geographical situation with regard to the river-they only have the St. Francis bottoms to fall back on, and that isn't much of a place, of course. Mr. KischeLOE. How about Louisiana?

Mr. LEACH. Louisiana is taking a very leading part in the fish business. They are assisting the bureau and cooperating to the fullest extent in the hatchery work.

Mr. ASWELL. As I understand it, the State established a hatchery there?

Mr. LEACH. Yes, at Alexandria, and they are helping us in the hatchery at Atchafalaya.

Mr ASWELL. Isn't the Alexandria hatchery successful?

Mr. LEACH. Yes. It will turn out a hundred or two hundred million buffalo fish every year. At Baton Rouge we have established a rescue operation.

Mr. VOIGT. Do I understand that some of the rescued fish are sold for food?

Mr. LEACH. They produce food eventually, when they have reached maturity.

Mr. VOIGT. You said last year you rescued 140,000,000 fish?
Mr. LEACH. Yes, sir.

Mr. Voigt. I did not understand what became of all of them. Mr. LEACH. About 139,000,000, approximately, were placed back in the main river in these four States, and about 1,000,000 were distributed to the 5,000 applicants from 32 States in the United States. Mr. VOIGT. Why do you have to put back so many and keep only a few?

Mr. LEACH. Most of the fish that we put back were catfish and sunfish, yellow perch, pickerel. Most of the States object to distributing such fish as that, which are more or less commercial fish. The fish that we distributed were more or less game fish.

Mr. MCSWEENEY. I think you said that the fish that were washed down the stream were lost?

Mr. LEACH. They would be lost. They would have no place for reproduction and no place to get food.

The CHAIRMAN. What about our present stock of fish in streams like that? Is it being depleted?

Mr. LEACH. According to these State authorities they are being very rapidly depleted. Some of the State authorities are not able to cope with the situation and they have implored the bureau to assist them in every way possible, and we have tried to do that. But our funds are limited, and their funds are limited also, no doubt. The CHAIRMAN. I understood you to say that they have very good laws in those States.

Mr. LEACH. Yes, sir; very good laws and they try to enforce them. The CHAIRMAN. Others have stated here that the laws are not enforced.

Mr. LEACH. I do not think they understood the laws as well as we do.

The CHAIRMAN. In your opinion, are they very well enforced?

Mr. LEACH. They are enforced to the best possible extent. As I say, there is divided authority on the Mississippi River. A fisherman in Iowa can go over into Wisconsin, and when a game warden detects him he can sneak back over the line, and it can not be helped. The CHAIRMAN. So far as the States are concerned, they are trying to do their best?

Mr. LEACH. They are doing the best they can to enforce the law. but there is divided authority there.

I think that is all, Mr. Chairman.

(Mr. Leach subsequently submitted the following :)

I wish to make a statement with regard to a remark made by Mr. Dilg the first day, which seems to be generally misunderstood. Mr. Dilg said that the upper Mississippi Valley was the last stand of the black bass. It is the last stand of the black bass and most all other game fishes. It is the only place where the Bureau of Fisheries obtains such fishes through salvage operations. It is the producing grounds for fish that are distributed to 32 States. If this supply is cut off the bureau will have to indorse on applications submitted for such species, "No fish available," and return them to the applicants. Our 16 hatcheries produce about 2,500,000 warm-water fishes. The upper Mississippi Valley region produced 148,000,000 during the season of 1924. Without this region the Bureau of Fisheries would not be able to supply the demand. When Mississippi, Virginia, Pennsylvania. New York, Ohio, or any of the other States fished out their waters there would be no source of supply except the output from the 16 hatcheries. From the figures which I have just given it is quite evident the demand could not be met. The upper river is, therefore, a great natural fish hatchery, producing millions of fish for 32 States.

G. C. LEACH, Bureau of Fisheries.

The CHAIRMAN. At this point I would like to ask if there is anyone here who desires to be heard in opposition to the bill. If so, they should be given opportunity to be heard. If not, we will proceed.

I have a letter here from parties who have been engaged in a drainage proposition covering 12,500 acres, in which it is stated that the Supreme Court has decided against the project, and they have given up the property and are perfectly willing that this bill should pass. The letter is as follows:

For the past few years Messrs. Robert H. Kerndt, Theo Kerndt, and H. C. Nielander, of the firm of Nielander & Co., of this city, Herman Haas, and myself have been working on plans to reclaim 12,500 acres of Mississippi River bottom lands lying in Crawford County, Wis., and opposite this city. In the grant of these lands from the United States to the State of Wisconsin, in 1850, it is specifically stated that these lands are for reclamation and the proceeds from the sale of these lands shall, as far as is necessary, go toward building levees and drains; but in the face of this fact the Supreme Court of Wisconsin has decided against us and we are taking the case to the Supreme Court of the United States. Nine hundred thousand acres of Mississippi River bottom lands, from Rock Island to New Orleans, have been reclaimed under the 1850 act and are now producing wonderful crops.

There are a lot of people who are more interested in hunting and fishing and who want to see these lands preserved as they are, and if our lands are wanted for such purposes we are willing to sell them at a very reasonable price.

These lands are rich in natural resources and if bought by the Government will yield good returns in the timber, fish, fur, mussel shells, lotus beds, etc. We are in favor of II. R. 4088, and hope you will do all you can to have it become a law.

The letter is signed by Julius Boeckh, of the State Bank of Lansing, Iowa.

Mr. DILG. Our next witness is Capt. C. F. Culler, the man who has charge of the 16 rescue crews along this river, and who has been doing the rescue work about which you have heard.

The CHAIRMAN. We will hear Mr. Culler.