8(a) set-aside officer down at Fort Benning or Fort Stewart or the Corps of Engineers, he's sitting right in the center of things. If he feels from go that this program should not exist, then he's not sensitive to the need of minorities, not sensitive to the set-aside program.

I think at some point in time, perhaps through some kind of training program, that these particular individuals can come in, an individual effort of the SBA, and let them know what the procedure is about and why, the mainstream of the American economy and what the end results are. So I think there's certainly a lack of sensitivity.

Senator NUNN. You think some kind of joint meeting with the procuring officers and the SBA, a little seminar that would let them voice their opinions and vice versa and get the air cleared and see where we're going?

Mr. ATKINSON. You could well include the procurement officer. The client himself should be included in such.

Senator NUNN. Good idea.

Let's see down here at the end.

Mr. HUBBARD. My name is Brad Hubbard, and I am with the Atlanta Business Group.

Pat, I'm appalled by your accomplishments. I think they're fantastic. I'm hoping that you're able to do something that will be rewarding as far as the SBA is concerned.

But I think my concern is that in looking at the recommendation that we have-first, before I express my concern, I would like to ask some questions.

The SBA, obviously, is a program set aside for all small business, am I not correct, any small business?

Ms. CLOHERTY. The small business set-aside program is for all businesses.

Mr. HUBBARD. All small business. And the SBA vehicle is set for all small business, am I not correct?

Ms. CLOHERTY. Yes. Generally, yes.

Mr. HUBBARD. In your recommendation and in what our problem is and what I feel my problem is, with all your recommendations, there's nothing here that's related to minority business where we have the problem. I feel that's the problem, OK? There's nothing here in your recommendation that specifically addresses the minority small business problem.

OK. Now, if the SBA is a vehicle for all small business, it's obvious that the majority small business doesn't have a problem because they're not in attendance of this meeting. OK. So, it's the minority small business that has a problem.

Senator NUNN. Wait. We concentrated this meeting on the minority situation. If we had said we were going to talk about all of them, we'd have to put it in the courthouse.

Mr. HUBBARD. We should be addressing the problem of the minority small business, OK.

In your recommendation, I see nothing that is directly relating to the problem of minority small business. That's one, my one concerns. The other concern, you speak of inadequate staff, and I truly agree with you. Now, you problably refer to inadequate staff as far as the number of people available, and that might be true, also. But I feel there is another level of inadequacy, and that's as far as the sensitivity

of the members of SBA in the procurement, the 8(a) set-aside, to the minority small business problem. And they're not addressing that, you know, that problem, from the minority.

Now, they might be setting aside 8(a) for small business. They might be accomplishing that goal as far as small business is concerned. But, as far as minority participation, that's the question I raise, whether we are achieving that goal of minority small busines participation.

OK. Now, another problem I think you mentioned was that in your recommendation and I'm going to be quiet after awhile, the goals are difficult to achieve based on a recommendation of the Review Board. Now, there is no goal that I know of that's worth achieving or attaining unless they're difficult. I think we have to have people in those positions that are willing to exert whatever is necessary to achieve these goals in dealing with minority small business. I feel that's one of the weakest points that we have in the SBA.

Senator NUNN. You're talking about the question of attitude? You're talking about a question of attitude, really?

Mr. HUBBARD. Yes, sir. Right.

Mr. HUDSON. Senator, ther's a couple of things. I'd like to supplement a couple things that were said.

One of the problems that Pat stated was the 8(a) program was designed to assist minorities. If my memory serves me correct, it was developed so long ago, minorities weren't considered and it was discovered to help minorities. I mean, it was already on the books and it was discovered that it could help minorities. It wasn't designed to assist minorities; it was initially designed to assist, quote, small business, whomsoever they may be.

So that is one thing that is obvious about the Small Business Administration. Many things are, in fact, discovered. They're already there. So I think that we need to glean and purge, or whatever, most of the small business relations.

As we have discovered, a number of us, in meeting with different Government agencies, there are small business, quote, authorities within all types of agencies. However, none of them relate to one another. And I think that SBA needs to either get a handle on it or be in charge of it or whatever they need to do.

Senator NUNN. We've got a bill that is now introduced on both sides that would try to consolidate the Federal effort. I met with Congressman Mitchell last week and Senator Johnston, and we're all moving in that direction at the present time.

Mr. HUDSON. Second, Curtis brought up the point about contracting officers. We must all recommend that there are purchasing agents. And the way that you succeed as a purchasing agent is on your ability to save money. Somehow or another you're going to have to reconcile saving money on one hand and giving it away, quote, unquote, on the other. And giving it away is the attitude that you're going to be giving it away versus actually giving it away.

And, third, I hope that at some point during this conference we'll get an opportunity to address regional problems also as they relate. I'm talking specifically about regional problems with our particular office. This particular region, as it relates to the whole, is one thing, but as relates to us specifically is concern.

Senator NUNN. Good. Let's see. I think we had the next question over here, and then here, and then here.

Mr. STEPHENS. I'm Clyde Stephens, Atlanta Business Group. A couple things that I would like to point out upon my mind, especially, are bonding and financing. I want to cite some examples in the Federal Government, some of the programs of which they are doing.

No. 1 problem is: Once a small firm has a contract, the amount of time of them getting their money and to your large firms that are not set aside, that the Government cites ways of giving them money up front. Now, I'm going to cite a couple examples there.

Our Government has programs that will give companies 95 percent of their money up front; whereas, in small businesses here, they have to wait anywhere from 100 to 120 days to get their money. So if the Government can make special restitutions to give large firms most of the time their money up front or in some cases get their money back in 15 to 20 days, I feel that they can make restitution in some ways to give the minority firms their money in a quicker way.

Senator NUNN. OK. Who was next?

Mr. MCMULLEN. Senator, I have a concern that I think concerns the legislative as well as the executive branches. You talked about the number of bills in your building and the House. They have been around for quite awhile and nothing has really happened. I think we can be talking about the bureaucracy and the inability to service the need, to serve the clients. But I don't see coming down the pike, if you will, the kind of committee we have toward the farmers; the kind of committee we have toward big business; the kind of committee we have toward TWA last year, Lockheed out here.

We, in America, don't let things fall. We said it's in the good interest or the best interest of the country. I submit to you it's in the best interest of the country that minority small business do survive.

You will submit that it is not; but, in deference that, to me, is where we really need to do some homework. We have been workshopped, seminared, and heared enough. We really need to get down to issues. Where is the commitment?

Probably talking about that sounds good. But also that translates into legislation and push. I don't see that coming in this fiscal year or any fiscal year. So these are my concerns.

Mr. MORRELL. I'm Virtual Morrell, Atlanta Business Group. I'd just like to point out some problems that I have seen based on observation.

One of those problems tends to be the bonding problem between the contractor, between the prime and the sub. The subcontractor has a hell of a time getting contracts, getting to participate on a prime job, unless he can get bonding. He can't get bonding because he does not have the capital to deal with it. It takes all of the capital that he has to go into contracts, to go into the bonding; yet there's no job for him because the bond contractor is not obligated to support the subcontractor in a major venture project. The other problems, one, I suppose, cannot say enough to bring up the question of insensitivity. You raised the point about the procuring and that Carter has made a commitment to double the procurement contracts within SBA; but it doesn't appear that it's going to matter unless you redefine what small business is all about. If small business means that, for an example, you define small business as anyone making $1 million gross sales or less, then that's one thing; and then you begin to weed out other concerns that are marginal. They play the game so that they can tailgate on minority business concerns; and the minority business

concerns never, never are able to benefit from SBA because, even though they are small businesses, they are really small business, and there are no benefits built in for that.

So, when you redefine commitment, I think you need to take notice to the fact that there needs to be a redefinition of what small business is. That's all.

Senator NUNN. That's a good point. That's one of the most difficult points.

One time I heard somebody say facetiously that a small business was anyone who didn't have a full-time lobbyist in Washington, Sometimes I think that's the true definition.

Mr. KELLEY. Senator, the 8(a) Review Board conclusions I agree with as being, perhaps, the gist of the problems that we're concerned with. They concluded that the goals of the problem were extremely difficult to achieve and that providing solutions for complex economic problems without a firm regislative mandate is difficult at best.

I think that that, perhaps, zeros in on what could perhaps be the solution provided to the small business community, and that being firm legislative mandates for the small business community.

A local congressional hopeful has indicated that he believes in a small business bill of rights. I think that such an idea could be legislatively mandated. Such a vehicle could, in effect, perhaps go a long way toward solving some of the problems that we're sitting around chatting about this morning.

Senator NUNN. Right.

Mr. JOHNSON. It's also been my experience that, in working with banks and other Federal institutions, with reference to participating in SBA, in a lot of cases where we're going with the commitment, when they don't want to do it, they plead ignorance to the process. But when they do want to do it, then they find out how it can be done.

The public relations' role that we play for the procurement works out all right. But I would like to see that rather than the Federal installation have goals of minority participation, that there be a requirement.

Now, I think that our officers have BDO's across the State and perhaps across the country that have been more involved on the focal public works program because there was a requirement of 10 percent. And I think the other Federal agencies, including SBA, should work with the 8(a) contract rather than saying that we're going to increase our goals by a number percent, that that be a requirement, that that kind of thing be done. And I think that's going to be a key in whether or not minorities really get a chance to participate. In looking at the total SBA program, minority business sort of look at it as a supermarket of goods and find some frustration and difficulty in dealing with it. I think the attitude is that SBA has what we need; now, how do we get together and implement it, how do we make it work. And, with that in mind, I think one thing is that SBA certainly needs to coordinate their resources more closely. In many cases, we're not together. In many cases, a client is in trouble before we, as a OMBE group, may find out about it, and it may be a bit late. I would like to see a greater effort on the part of OMBE and SBA in bringing to bear relief on the minority client.

Second, I would like to see, as it relates specifically to 8(a), that there be a better coordination of all of the SBA corollaries to an 8(a) contract. That is, if the procurement is there, then are we making

timely moves to see the bonding requirements are met and financial requirements are met. And sometimes this does not happen. Sometimes it's a lack of coordination inhouse. Again, SBA may be pulled off to a disaster program and their loan staff is depleted and you simply can't make that type of coordinated effort.

The other thing is, I'm wondering, speaking of the disaster program, as to why a small agency like the SBA is involved in it in the first place. It seems that the Farm Home Administration should be involved. I see most of the farms located in rural areas. I'm wondering if some central coordination can't be done with the disaster relief program and then

Senator NUNN. The effort is now being talked about to consolidate all of the farm disasters in the Farm Home Administration. The problem was that, in the middle of this last year in Georgia and the other States that suffered a drought, the Farm Home had legislative impediments and regulatory impediments. They could not deal with the problem, it amounted to an emergency situation. I was the one that got SBA involved in the drought assistance; not because that was the most desirable management vehicle, but because it was the only

Mr. WILLIAMS. Allowable vehicle.

Senator NUNN. Right. And we were really on the verge of having whole rural areas of the State of Georgia basically go under. It wasn't only a question of farmers; it was a question of having banks with no funds to loan big or small businesses, farmers, or anybody else. So it involved much more than just the farmers. It involved the whole rural economy of our State.

But you're absolutely right, and I think SBA would be the first to agree with you. They don't want that role; they want to get out of it. And I don't think they really wanted it to start with. It was imposed on them, and I'll plead guilty to that. But I felt it was one of those situations where we had to make the best of this situation overall because of the tremendous emergency. And it was an emergency.

Mr. YANCEY. Mr. Senator, I came in with a pad of questions. I think we need to discuss the key issue as far as 8(a) contractors are concerned as well as the bonding problems. If we sort of relate that as to SBA lessening their bonding requirements, we are sort of doing a double transaction there with the bonds. I think our biggest answer would be a meeting with the SBA representatives and the procurement officers, along with people that are using the services. Then we can really get down to the real problems.

I personally have contracted SBA on several jobs or something, and they have problems out of the procurement officers with different things about the contractor not having equipment or may not have the full staff to do a job. Well, I really feel that if a contractor was really stacked up with equipment, he'd be out of small business altogether. He would be one of the large guys. So this stuff on having everything you need before you get the job is almost ridiculous. The vehicle is to get the guy the job so that he can get the job he needs.

Senator NUNN. Right.

Mr. YANCEY. So I think that the answer is to have the SBA representatives and procurement officers and the users of both of those agencies get together.