cluding trailer court facilities, improvements to quarters, minor construction, advance planning, and design. The remaining $96,948,000 will provide for the support of family housing including operating expenses, leasing, maintenance, and debt payments.

We are recommeding the construction of 5,040 units at 21 Navy and Marine Corps installations. I have personally reviewed the housing requirement at each installation for which new construction is proposed, and have made on-site inspections at many of these locations to confirm our housing requirements and deficiencies.

This concludes my introductory statement, Mr. Chairman. I will be most happy to try to answer any questions the committee may have and to discuss the merits of each project in detail. Thank you.

Senator STENNIS. Gentlemen, I have a number of questions here. You see, we will not hold any extensive hearings separately in the Appropriations Subcommittee this year on these matters because this joint hearing and the personnel coincide considerably. So I am going to give these questions to Mr. Reed to answer for the record. Mr. REED. Yes, sir.

Senator STENNIS. They are especially prepared and I think there is a lot of merit in them. And we will give you time to get your answers in. But we do want them answered fully. If you think the services should give an answer in addition to yours, you can have them do it to give the full picture.

Who represents the Air Force in this capacity?

Colonel MANNING. I am Lieutenant Colonel Manning.

Senator STENNIS. You have heard what I have said with reference to the entire program. Do you have a statement?

Colonel MANNING. No, sir; I do not have a prepared statement. Senator STENNIS. All right. You may state such points as you wish for emphasis.

STATEMENT OF LT. COL. S. W. MANNING, U.S. AIR FORCE Colonel MANNING. Yes, sir.

Mr. Chairman, the Air Force is happy to support Mr. Reed's program in its entirety. I think for the first time the Air Force and the Department of Defense are more nearly in agreement with the terms of the criteria for requirements of housing than we have been before. Senator STENNIS. Yes.

Colonel MANNING. The program as Mr. Reed has presented it, of course, is only a portion of the 5-year program. We will have continuous 5-year programs after this and certainly our need is for the housing now, sir. It is not a need based on 5 or 10 years from now.

All of these bases have been approved by Mr. McNamara himself for housing and the requirements have been known for quite some time, as you know from your past experience dealing with our housing program.

We are indeed grateful for the support of this committee in providing our houses.

Senator STENNIS. Colonel, I don't know whether you are familiar with this or not, but it looks to us like the cost to the Government for the maintenance and upkeep and utilities in a year is an average of about $950. What do you have to say to that?

Colonel MANNING. Mr. Chairman, at first glance one might think that this is a high figure. However, when we analyze the cost of

the maintenance of our houses in existence, we find that we maintain such things as the sewage system which would normally be maintained by the community, the power systems which would normally be maintained by the power company, or utility companies. All of this maintenance is included in our cost, sir. We have no one else to defray this expense.

Therefore, when we analyze it, we find that the costs are rather reasonable.

Senator STENNIS. Do you mean you provide the electricity they use for these houses?

Colonel MANNING. We procure it, and the cost of this procurement is costed to the cost of operating and maintaining the houses. In some cases, however, we do manufacture our own electricity.

Senator STENNIS. But you get a better rate on the average than an individual citizen would get?

Colonel MANNING. Yes, sir. We would normally expect that the base rate for utilities, when we do contract for them, to be much lower than the individual in a community.

Senator STENNIS. You buy the electricity at the place of intake; is that right?

Colonel MANNING. Yes, sir; where it comes to the base.

Senator STENNIS. And it is distributed around over your area. Colonel MANNING. Yes, sir. And the cost of the maintenance of the distribution system, the cost of procuring the electricity or water, is all costed back to our housing cost.

Senator STENNIS. Yes. I know. But still it looks to me as if it would be cheaper when you get such a good rate on the volume of your electric current.

Colonel MANNING. You are certainly correct, sir. We do get a reduced rate on our utilities. Again, though, we have related costs such as the costs of streets. This, too, is charged against our housing. Senator STENNIS. What about your heating? Do you buy gas if it is available at the intake point?

Colonel MANNING. Yes, sir. We buy it and meter it at the base

entrance.

Senator STENNIS. You have to distribute it.

Colonel MANNING. Yes, sir. We distribute it and the operation of the furnaces is costed against our housing.

Senator STENNIS. Do you have electric meters on each house to tell how much is used?

Colonel MANNING. No, sir; Mr. Chairman. We have sampled many houses individually. We have houses by blocks or areas, two or three blocks at a time, that are metered so that we can estimate fairly accurately the utilities that are consumed by those families within the blocks.

Senator STENNIS. I just believe that I would use more electricity if I didn't know that meter was running and that I was going to have to pay according to what the meter said. I might have been mistaken about human nature all these years. But I don't believe so. Don't you think it would be well to put in meters or some kind of a check? Colonel MANNING. We don't believe that the expense of individually metering the utilities at each building would justify the expense involved.

Senator STENNIS. What about the gas, where you have gas heat? Do you have any meters?

Colonel MANNING. Yes, sir; we have meters within areas, seldom at individual units.

Senator STENNIS. Senator, we have talked about the housing pro

gram.

Senator THURMOND. Yes, I know.

Senator STENNIS. We are talking about the upkeep and maintenance. Colonel MANNING. I would like to express, Mr. Chairman, that all of the services do have good management programs with regard to our quarters at our bases. Each occupant is provided a brochure of what is expected of him and his family.

Senator STENNIS. We will get to that later. Let me go on with the detailed examination. You have no gas meters, no electric meters. What about water meters?

Colonel MANNING. They would be the same as the other utilities, normally by blocks and not by individual users.

Senator STENNIS. The care and upkeep of the floors, for instance, in these buildings, redoing of the walls and so forth. Do you pay for all that?

Colonel MANNING. Well, normally, sir, the routine maintenance such as rewaxing floors, is done by the occupant. Cleaning fingerprints off the walls, and so forth, is the occupant's responsibility. Senator STENNIS. Housekeeping.

Colonel MANNING. Normal housekeeping.

Senator STENNIS. I will be more specific. The redecorating or repainting, of the interior of the house and the ordinary repairs to the building or to the faucets in the sink and the bathroom, all that is taken care of by you.

Colonel MANNING. Yes, sir; this is a cost which is related to the houses.

Senator STENNIS. What about the street upkeep? Of course, you do that, I am sure.

Colonel MANNING. Yes, sir; the streets, sidewalks, driveways, and so forth, the Government does maintain those and that cost is permitted.

Senator STENNIS. What about the lawn? The occupant takes care of the lawn,

Colonel MANNING. Yes, sir; the occupant takes care of his own lawn and yard.

An exception would be a large central area that couldn't be identified with one house. Then, if it was a play area or something to this effect, then we would mow this. But up next to his area, he would take care of it.

Senator STENNIS. I just made the point that the figures seemed high, Senator, averaged about $950 per unit throughout the country.

You build near enough to cities, though, to use their water supply or their gas or their electricity, do you not?

Colonel MANNING. Yes, sir; where the utilities are available, we use them from a commercial source.

Senator STENNIS. You buy it at the property line, so to speak.
Colonel MANNING. Yes, sir.

Senator STENNIS. At the intake place.

Colonel MANNING. Normally at the entrance to the base or to the

Federal property.

Senator STENNIS. Do you have anything else you want to say for emphasis on these matters?

Colonel MANNING. No, sir, Mr. Chairman.

Senator STENNIS. Did you have anything to do with selecting the different bases that would be included for housing?

Colonel MANNING. Yes, sir, I did. I am Chief of the Programs Branch for the Air Force and presented the requirements for housing to the Air Staff and to the Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense. Senator STENNIS. All right.

Senator THURMOND. I might ask him one question.
Senator STENNIS. Certainly. You can ask it now.

Senator THURMOND. Has a study been made to determine whether it would be cheaper to the Government over a period of years to provide housing or to provide a housing allowance?

Colonel MANNING. Senator, I believe there have been many, many studies prepared in this regard. There are various means and various locations where programs of this nature would provide great dividends.

For instance, overseas, where it is often advantageous to pay more allowance for quarters and let the individual find his own housing accommodations. I wouldn't say that there is any program that would fit all locations, sir. We do know that the average basic allowance for quarters saved and not paid to the individual amounts to about $500 a year more than it costs us to maintain a house. Therefore, that roughly $500 could be applied toward amortizing any units which the Congress permits us to construct.

Senator THURMOND. So you think it is cheaper for the Government to build housing rather than to provide a housing allowance?

Colonel MANNING. In specific locations I would definitely feel this way, sir. In others I think it would be advantageous to go the other

route.

Senator THURMOND. Of course, there are certain installations where they need housing on the base or the fort, as the case may be, because, for instance, if the line has to be held or people scattered all around too far, they couldn't be gotten together quickly to move quickly. Colonel MANNING. That is true.

Senator THURMOND. And I can see where it would be necessary for the Government to have housing even though it did cost more. But I was just wondering in general how the comparison ran.

Colonel MANNING. Yes, sir. Now, we have certain key and essential elements of our military force, sir, that must be so we can readily get our hands on them, so to speak, have them available at all times. These we try our best to have located on base.

Senator THURMOND. All right. Thank you. That is all, Mr. Chairman.

Senator STENNIS. Thank you.

Gentlemen, unless some new point comes up in the answers to these questions or otherwise, we will not come back to this housing again in the hearings. So I want to be sure that you have had full opportunity, each of you, to speak. What about the Marine Corps? They come under the Navy, don't they?

Captain MARSHALL. Yes, sir; I cover for them. I believe Major Hollis

Senator STENNIS. Major, if you want to say something, we will be glad to hear from you.

STATEMENT OF MAJ. J. S. HOLLIS, U.S. MARINE CORPS

Senator STENNIS. Do you have a prepared statement?

Major HOLLIS. No, sir, Mr. Chairman; I do not.

The Marine Corps program is carried under the Department of the Navy and we fully support the program submitted by the Department of the Navy and by Mr. Reed for the Secretary of Defense.

Senator STENNIS. How many were allotted to the Marine Corps? Major HOLLIS. In the fiscal year 1966 program we have 100 units for Quantico and 52 units for the Marine Corps Supply Center, Barstow. Senator STENNIS. Well, it seems to me you got a mighty small portion. The marines don't ask for much.

Captain MARSHALL. Mr. Chairman, we try to take care of them. The Marine Corps has only nine major ground bases and, of course, we have all the air stations under the Navy. So this is why it appears small.

Major HOLLIS. That is right. It does include the units programed for Marine Corps air activities. In addition to that, the Marine Corps barracks participate in the housing made available by the Navy. So we can't just say those are the only units we will have to participate in.

Senator STENNIS. Do you participate in the family housing for military that the Navy

Major HOLLIS. Yes, sir.

Senator STENNIS. Well, that makes a big difference. You assign them or pro rate share of the housing?

Major HOLLIS. At our Marine Corps ground activities, our major activities, Mr. Chairman, we have our own individual program. However, at those individual activities that are located at naval installations, in other words, say our marine barracks, and so forth, our personnel requirements there are computed and the total complex surveyed for the naval installation. Our people will also participate in the assignment to those houses that are made available as part of that installation's program.

Senator STENNIS. What about Parris Island, S.C., where you have a large marine installation? Do you have any housing there?

Major HOLLIS. At the Marine Corps Recruit Depot at Parris Island, S.C., we conducted a complex survey which includes the Marine Corps Air Station at Beaufort as well as the U.S. naval hospital. It is on a complex basis. We have no housing requirement in the fiscal year 1966 program at that installation this year, no, sir.

Senator STENNIS. Does the Navy have anything?

Major HOLLIS. No, sir.

Senator STENNIS. You are already taken care of, not left out.
Captain MARSHALL. Yes.

Major HOLLIS. No, sir. They recently built the Capehart units at the Marine Corps Air Station at Beaufort.