Mr. REED. Yes, sir; very much so, because there are some people who prefer that mode of living and for those people who do, we want to at least provide safe, decent, and sanitary facilities.

Senator SALTONSTALL. How many of these trailer court spaces have you at the present time?

Mr. REED. At the present time, sir-at the moment, sir, we have 5,014 spaces for Government-owned trailers and these trailers are phasing out over a period of time and we have 9,424 for private trailers.

Senator SALTONSTALL. What was the last?

Mr. REED. 9,424 spaces for privately-owned trailers.

Senator SALTONSTALL. So at the present time you have 14,000 spaces, 5,000 owned by the Government and spaces for 9,000 private owned; is that correct?

Mr. REED. Yes, sir.

Senator SALTONSTALL. And you are requesting 600 more?

Mr. REED. That is correct.

Senator SALTONSTALL. If that is a successful program, why shouldn't it be more than that?

Mr. REED. Because this is generally what the military departments find is their need at the different bases, sir. For example, the Navy project is 200 spaces at Norfolk. We do not particularly encourage the purchase of trailers by personnel but a number prefer that method of living. It is a very modest program whereby we are trying each year to provide a small increment for this personal preference.

Senator SALTONSTALL. What is the cost, we will say, for one trailer court space? Can you break it down?

Mr. REED. Yes, sir. $1,800 is the total cost including the ground facilities, sewage system, and so forth.

Senator SALTONSTALL. That would mean that they would provide their own trailer?

Mr. REED. They must provide their own trailer, yes, sir. I might add, sir, that the $1,800 is amortized within a given period of time and the Government recaptures this through the rent charged the individual for the space.

Senator SALTONSTALL. Suppose we authorized more than 600. Wouldn't that be helpful?

Mr. REED. Not at this point I don't believe, sir.

Senator SALTONSTALL. All right. Now, Mr. Chairman, just two more questions, if I may, and I appreciate your courtesy.

You mentioned West Point housing on page 7 and you want a higher ceiling there. Now, you want to go up on the average total cost. What price do you want us to set now?

Mr. REED. $36,000.

Senator SALTONSTALL. $36,000.

Mr. REED. Yes, sir.

Senator SALTONSTALL. And that would be just at West Point? Mr. REED. That is correct. General Clarke and the Army people are here and they have done a very detailed engineering study of this problem and are prepared at your convenience to go into this in depth you would like. We were able to get a better price estimate this time than the $37,000 previously because I think we started earlier and were able to get a firm good engineering site plan.

if

47-232-65--34

Senator SALTONSTALL. Just one other question. May I call your attention to this family housing, new construction on the last page? Mr. REED. Yes, sir.

Senator SALTONSTALL. It is shown by services.

Mr. REED. Yes, sir.

Senator SALTONSTALL. We will take the Army first. The Army is asking to build 2,470 houses this year? What will the deficit be?

Mr. REED. Under the fiscal year 1966 program, sir, we are requesting 2,470 units for the Army. This will leave them a deficit at these 13 installations mentioned here of 14,609.

Senator SALTONSTALL. So that if we give the Army what you want you still will have a deficit of 14,000 houses.

Mr. REED. At these 13 installations; yes, sir.

Senator SALTONSTALL. And in the Navy? Is the deficit 24,346? Mr. REED. Again, just at these bases which are listed. Each department has a far greater deficit than is shown here in total. In fact, our 5-year deficit, sir, from our 5-year force structure plan, is about 49,000 units, all 3 departments.

Senator SALTONSTALL. Well, I don't quite get that. I think it is very important. You are asking us this year to authorize 12,500 houses.

Mr. REED. Yes, sir.

Senator SALTONSTALL. And if we authorize those for the three seryices, that is, what will be your overall deficit then?

Mr. REED. The overall deficit following that?

Senator SALTONSTALL. Yes.

Mr. REED. It would be, sir, a programable deficit, because as you know, we do not program up to the absolute need at each base, our programable deficit at the moment is 49,000 units.

If you give us this 12,500, we will then have the 37,000 remaining which hopefully we could solve in the next 4 years following fiscal year 1966.

Senator SALTONSTALL. And that is in addition to the trailer courts, the improvements, relocating the housing from the airbase and everything else.

Mr. REED. Yes, sir. Our projection for that amount even takes into effect the best estimates that we are capable of making of the growth of the community where these bases are. I am sure most of the military departments would tell you, sir, that they figure it is even more than that and we haven't permitted it to be programed because it just has not yet satisfied us. But we feel that the 49,000 is conservative. Senator SALTONSTALL. Are you going to testify on your O. & M. requests at this time or are you going to bring it up when we have our hearings on O. & M.?

Mr. REED. It will be in this bill, sir, because as you know, the authorization language requires that there be a complete authorization and the family housing defense appropriation comes before you for authorization in its entirety. We are prepared now, sir, to answer any questions.

Senator SALTONSTALL. Thank you very much.

Senator STENNIS. Thank you, Senator. I am glad that you could be here.

Before I continue with some more questions, I want to go back to this matter you have been talking about, the $100,000 houses, Senator Young.

Senator SALTONSTALL. Mr. Chairman, would you yield?

Senator STENNIS. Yes.

Senator SALTONSTALL. I will just put in the record that Admiral Radford's house, which was turned down here, was for $100,000 and the communications systems in it, $80,000, so that there would have been a total of $180,000 asked by Admiral Radford at that time and that was refused; $100,000 is the same figure you are asking for now for these others. That is just for the record.

Senator STENNIS. What finally became of the Admiral Radford request?

Senator SALTONSTALL. Nothing came of it, sir.

Senator STENNIS. Yes. They got a house or a renovation of one. Isn't that right? Renovation of an old one at Fort Myer-never did get this one.

You are right.

Well, now, I don't think there is any use for us-you may object to this-but frankly I don't think there is any use for the committee to take much more time on these $100,000 houses. The Vice President of the United States turned down the idea of having a house built for him. The President recommended it; the Vice President objected. We have been previously snake bitten on these matters, Mr. Reed. I think in fairness to Admiral Radford, he wasn't going to occupy the house for himself. His term would have been up. But he was working for it and made an issue of it.

I think I had at least 50 telephone calls and 25 or 30 people came to my office. I remember being called off the floor of the Senate several times during matters that were important and we never did pass the bill. But they spent $125,000 renovating a building out at Fort Myer. I am sure the Strike Command is highly important. It was created only 2 or 3 years ago and now they want $100,000 for the commanding officer's house. We want to take care of him and we will make a special effort here to put something extra in the bill if necessary. I don't care for the illustration about the British spending $82,000, Mr. Reed; we can't keep up with the British. We can't afford it. But I think that putting these matters in here shakes our faith in the rest of your program. We believe we had better just agree to take these out here.

I remember a few years ago when there was a situation at the Army Chemical Center, where $65,000 was spent renovating an old home. What is the name of that place?

Mr. REED. Edgewood Arsenal.

Senator STENNIS. That kind of thing shakes your faith in the judgment of the man in command who would spend such money as that to renovate an old house or home, and do it with loose money of some kind. It wasn't authorized. So these things shake our faith not in you personally, but in your program.

Now, of course, if you have a special statement to put in on this or any additional facts, we would be glad to have it, but

Mr. REED. May we submit such a statement, Mr. Chairman?

Mr. STENNIS. Yes. If you have got anything new about the need especially.

Mr. REED. All right, sir.

(The statement follows:)

REPRESENTATIONAL QUARTERS

It is the view of the Department of Defense that there are a limited number of positions within the Military Establishment which involve extensive public relations and representational responsibilities. The incumbents of these positions are called upon to represent the interests of the United States in numerous social activities involving foreign and/or U.S. dignitaries of high governmental and military rank, as well as outstanding members of the business, industrial, labor, scientific, and academic communities. Sixty-one positions have been identified as meeting these criteria and qualify as "military representational positions." Persons occupying these positions are in ranks 0-8 to 0-10. Typical of these positions are the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, the Chiefs of Staff of the Army and Air Force, the Chief of Naval Operations, the Commandant of the Marine Corps, Commanders of Joint Commands, the Superintendent of the various service academies, etc.

In general, the incumbents of the positions identified as "military representational positions" are adequately housed. There are, however, a few who lack appropriate accommodations. In addition, there are some who reside in units which are uneconomic to operate and maintain. It is proposed to provide satisfactory quarters for these who do not now have such facilities and to replace those which are expensive to continue in the Defense inventory.

Military representational quarters cannot be obtained under current statutory size and cost criteria. At present, there are size limitations of 2,100 square feet for family housing. Further, there are statutory cost limitations of $24,000 for the unit itself (and $28,000 for all costs including site development work).

In fiscal year 1966, it is proposed to acquire or construct two sets of military representational quarters. These units will be limited in size to 3,600 square feet and in cost to $80,000 to the 5-foot line or $100,000 for the total overall costs. We do not consider the size or cost to be ostentations or unreasonable.

Senator SALTONSTALL. Mr. Chairman, would you yield? As I suggested to Mr. Reed, it would help us and help him if you would request to withdraw it and perhaps submit it in a different form, either as a special bill or in a different amount. I think it would help on the whole bill.

Senator STENNIS. If I may, I think if we are going to have it presented, it goes in this bill more than it does an independent bill because it is housing. Do you want to say something, Mr. Reed?

Mr. REED. Yes, sir. I was going to say, to withdraw I would have to consult Mr. McNamara. Again, our purpose in putting it in here is so that the committee could have the opportunity for a discussion of this nature. The need is real, sir. If we can impress that upon you.

Senator STENNIS. Well, I don't really think the need is real. If I thought it was, we would be jumping over each other trying to get it put in. But we have been through this, Mr. Reed, longer than you have, more than you have, many times. And I don't think they kept faith with us frankly on this Army Chemical Center I was referring

to.

Now, one thing you asked about that is important is this West Point housing. Do you think that is fully covered?

Senator SALTONSTALL. I believe so.

Senator STENNIS. You want an extra amount of money. The unit cost asked for is an increase in the ceiling on these houses at West Point. Give us something special on that. Why are you asking for more houses at West Point? Where does this new policy come in of furnishing homes for-are these members of the faculty?

Mr. REED. These are for the faculty and these are the faculty additions required by the increase in the student body which the Congress approved.

Senator STENNIS. How have we been getting along without those all these years?

Mr. REED. Because we did not have the increase and the increase is now just beginning to come in. The housing request is phased with the buildup of faculty together with the increase in the dormitories for the new cadets. It is a phased program.

Senator STENNIS. It is phased with your new demand for faculty due to the increase in the number of cadets; right?

Mr. REED. Yes, sir.

Senator YARBOROUGH. I think one more factor to mention there, Mr. Chairman, is it very expensive moving the rock that takes place? Rocky hills that they have to cut into and I think that is set out in the statement. Construction is very expensive. Blasting, rock cutting there. West Point was a fortification in the Revolution. There is a lot of rock that comes down through the narrows there. They may have a special situation.

Senator STENNIS. Well, is there somewhere else you could build them to avoid all this extra cost? What have you done-I haven't been up there in a long time-but what have you done to try to find a location that wouldn't be so costly even though it might not be quite as convenient?

Mr. REED. Under General Clarke's personal supervision we have studied every conceivable location in the area. I think again they are prepared

Senator STENNIS. We will take one at a time. What do you know about this? You have overall responsibility. What has been done toward trying to find another location where you wouldn't have to spend this extra money?

Mr. REED. A consulting firm was retained, sir. They went out and looked at all Government-owned land in the vicinity. Every site that possibly had a potential was studied, considering bringing in the utilities of water, sewer, and electrical.

The most economical site, sir, is located, I believe, some 4 or 5 miles from the main part of the campus. An engineering firm was retained to give us the very best estimates so that we could come in with the most economical cost. General Clarke and I personally went over the territory by helicopter with the Superintendent. We have personally looked this over and I am personally convinced that the Army has done a fine engineering job in estimating and this is what we need to provide for the increase.

Senator STENNIS. Who was your engineering firm?

Mr. REED. I am sorry, I don't have that name, sir.

Senator STENNIS. Well, you can supply that later. They made an estimate and surveyed this thing for what purpose?

Mr. REED. For the purpose of finding the most economical site. The housing required for this faculty increase

Senator STENNIS. Was that what they were told to do―get the most economical site?

Mr. REED. Yes, sir.

Senator STENNIS. Who told them that.

Mr. REED. We told the Department of the Army that was to be the criteria and they executed under that guidance

Senator STENNIS. Let's get a copy of the letter that was written to the engineering firm. Let's see exactly what their guidelines were and