Senator COPELAND. Now, Dr. Bennett, you are familiar, of course, with the language of Congressman Umstead's letter found in the hearings of the House at page 1274.

Dr. BENNETT. Yes, sir.

Senator COPELAND. Well now, I want to ask some questions about that letter, because unfortunately I read it.

I find it very disadvantageous to acquire any information, because it makes it more difficult to arrive at a decision.

Now, at the bottom of page 1275-by the way, I may say that this is a letter written by Congressman Umstead of North Carolina to Chairman Cannon, giving his observations on a field inspection trip which apparently he made some time last year, and the letter is dated December 16, 1936.

VALLISCA, IOWA, STATION

Mr. Umstead says that he arrived at a station at Vallisca, Iowa, and there he found at the experiment station "an agricultural engineer, an agronomist, a junior soil conservationist, an associate agricultural engineer, an engineering assistant, a cooperative assistant, a farm foreman and a stenographer."

Besides that there were:

Four junior full-time laborers, and 30 or 40 W. P. A. workers had been working at the experiment station for about 8 months. The experiment farm consists of about 200 acres of land.

Now, Mr. Umstead thinks first that you have too many employees and secondly that you have erected buildings which are too expensive and too elaborate, concrete buildings erected on leased land.

In short, his charge is "This, I think, is unnecessary extravagance." Now, Dr. Bennett, in order to ease my conscience, having read this, tell us why you need all this equipment in the way of buildings, and so many employees? Is it because when you go out to these farms, you take along all of these specialists?

Dr. BENNETT. Yes, sir, and because of the extensive experiments being carried on at this station.

Senator COPELAND. And they take the farmer out and have a kind. of a clinical examination as to what ought to be done; is that correct? Dr. BENNETT. That is right, sir.

Senator COPELAND. Well, is there any foundation, in your judgment, for Mr. Umstead's suggestion that you have too many employees?

Dr. BENNETT. Well, we do not think so. We undertook to answer Mr. Umstead in the committee, in the House hearings. From his point of view we may have done so.

The station under discussion, Senator, is one of the ten erosion research stations, that were set up by an appropriation 8 years ago; the first appropriation made by Congress providing for the establishment of research stations to study the fundamental process relating to soil and water losses; the rates of losses under different conditions of slope, different cultural treatment, cropping, and so on.

Senator COPELAND. Now, Dr. Bennett, I am in the fullest sympathy with the general principles of your proposal. I think I understand the ends you have in mind.

Some of these Senators around here brag about being farmers. I, too, am a farmer.

Dr. BENNETT. I am, too, Senator.

Senator COPELAND. I suffer some from erosion.

But now, let us begin with this. Why did you have to put up a lot of concrete buildings on that particular land?

Dr. BENNETT. The actual buildings were not constructed of concrete. I think Mr. Umstead had reference to the concrete tanks which we had built at the lower end of these various plots so that it would be possible to catch and weigh every particle of soil washed off and every drop of water running off the plots.

Senator COPELAND. That is your laboratory?

Dr. BENNETT. That is a part of our laboratory set up as a part of this experiment station and in connection with this investigation.

We made those, he thought, excessively large; actually we made them large enough to take care of the greatest possible run-off that could be expected over a 48-hour period, a 2-day period, based on the Weather Bureau records for that region. We built them so as not to lose a record. We did not want to have our yearly successive yearly studies on soil and water losses interfered with by having a tank too small, if we had an excessive rain. This is why they had the appearance of being too large.

Senator COPELAND. Then, I understand, so far as the ordinary buildings on the place are concerned, they are not concrete.

Dr. BENNETT. No, sir. Some of them had concrete foundations, but the buildings on which we have expended funds were built so that they could be removed to other places; in all, we have only spent $5,200 for buildings at that location. The remainder of the construction having been financed by the State of Iowa, or having been located on the land at the time that the land was leased by the State for the benefit of the Soil Conservation Service.

Senator COPELAND. How many such experiment stations have you throughout the country?

Dr. BENNETT. We have ten of those original stations and a number of new ones. I think we have 19 in operation now and 2 complete watershed stations. Dr. Lowdermilk, perhaps, when we take up the research studies, can go into that more in detail with respect to this.

Senator COPELAND. Now, Mr. Umstead in speaking about the equipment you had there says you had five motor vehicles, five horses, two tractors, a terracing machine, and a large amount of other equipment and supplies.

I judge from his letter that he thinks that you had too many motor vehicles, and too many tractors.

Now, this is what he says, too, and I want you to know that I am not using my language.

On page 1276 of the House hearings he says:

In the tool shed I noticed a new Gravely cultivator and mower. I inquired about this machine and found that although it had been there over 30 days they had been unable to find anything for which it would be satisfactorily used. I found upon examination that it was not requested or ordered by the experiment station, but that it had been sent there by the Washington office. I am interested to know if one of these machines was sent by the Washington office to each of the soil conservation experiment stations throughout the country. If so, it constitutes, in my judgment, extravagance, and waste is an evidence of bad judgment.

Dr. BENNETT. If we had done that, I think he would be right in his judgment as to evidence of waste, but as explained further in the

House hearings, we had not done that. The superintendent of that station ordered three of those little tractors, those little motor cultivators, for three different stations with which he was familiar, where he felt they were needed in connection with this work, because he was carrying out research work.

We have to be very exact. We want to cultivate the different crops the same day and give exactly the same kind of cultivation. So, to avoid the differentiation that might come about or be caused by a rain coming in overnight, we got these little tractors and put them on three different stations.

This general superintendent, Mr. Musgrave, had to leave the station before they arrived and the gentlemen left behind did not understand what they were for when Mr. Umstead made his inquiries. Subsequently these three machines have been used properly, advantageously, effectively, and have helped us to get results.

EQUIPMENT OWNED BY THE SOIL CONSERVATION SERVICE

Senator O'MAHONEY. Can you give us a list, Dr. Bennett, of all of the equipment which is owned by the Soil Conservation Service; number of tractors; number of automobiles; number of horsedrawn vehicles?

Dr. BENNETT. Yes, sir; we can do that. I think that we ought to have it here.

Mr. COLLIER. We can put it in the record. I do not believe it is in the record, but we can supply it for the record.

Senator O'MAHONEY. I think that it would be an interesting thing; and also the distribution of that equipment, and what it costs.

Mr. COLLIER. We can give you approximate figures on that. Senator O'MAHONEY. And whether or not you estimate that there will be any additional expense for similar equipment in this bill. (The statement requested follows:)

Plows.