lost in the flood of 1940. According to the statement you have made, these people who lost their lives were not living in what will become the protected area if these projects are constructed? Mr. STRICKLAND. That is correct. Senator MCCLELLAN. In other words, had you had the dams at that time, that would not have saved their lives? Mr. STRICKLAND. That is right. Those people who lost their lives lived way up the mountainside, right on the edge of the stream, and that will not be affected by the erection of these dams at all. So far as the people living in the valley are concerned, there were no lives lost there. Senator MCCLELLAN. I just wanted to clarify that. There has beeen some testimony on that. Senator ROBERTSON. So if, in calculating benefits, they include the loss of those nine lives, it would not be correct? Mr. STRICKLAND. No, sir; it would not. Senator GOSSETT. Was this storm in the form of a cloudburst? Senator GOSSETT. Very unusual? Mr. STRICKLAND. Yes, sir. The same storm affected we people living right in the city of Lenoir. It flooded all of our basements. I live next to a school ground, and it was of such force that the flood pipes of the city could not carry the water off, and there is a manhole in the school ground in front of my house, and there was a stream of water shooting out of that manhole as high as from here to the ceiling. It flooded my basement. And it was those same proportions all over that end of the State, not only the western part of the State, but the eastern part of the State too. That was an unusual proposition, and would not be benefited by having these dams constructed. Another thing I want to mention in that connection is that there is a good deal of timber operation going on in the mountains, and the water under circumstances like that-it doesn't bother any other time comes down those mountainsides with such force that it picks up logs and that sort of thing, and that would fill the pond up. Senator MCCLELLAN. Is it your contention that where damage actually results even from this extraordinary flood that you had in 1940, that it would be cheaper to make readjustments down the valley in the location of property than it would to build these projects to try to hold back the floods? Mr. STRICKLAND. Yes, sir, that is my contention. Senator McCLELLAN. For instance, like it has been testified here, there are some small plants down at Wilkesboro. Mr. STRICKLAND. And they are in the river bottom. That is the point about it, if they will just move them up on the hillside, then it won't affect them. Senator MCCLELLAN. In other words, they could be relocated cheaper than you could build these dams? Mr. STRICKLAND. Exactly. Now one other thing that I want to mention, and then I will not take any more of your time. There is a fine grade school at the village of Ferguson that will be completely covered up by water even if detention dams are built. There are the highways in the territory that will be inundated and ruined. your Senator MCCLELLAN. Will they have to be relocated? Mr. STRICKLAND. Yes, sir. Senator OVERTON. That is not the testimony of the engineers. The testimony of the engineers is that the detention reservoirs will confine the stream below the reservoirs within the banks. Mr. STRICKLAND. Yes, sir, but above the reservoirs for instance, the hard-surface highway Senator OVERTON (interposing). You are talking about above the reservoir? Mr. STRICKLAND. Yes. [Continuing.] That goes from Lenoir to the village of Ferguson will be completely covered up, so even if Mr. Ferguson was to move his house back to higher ground, he would have no way of getting in and out of there. And so far as renting the land back to the owners for a dollar and a half an acre, that is an absolutely impossible situation, because as Mr. Jones pointed out, if this water is held in there long enough for it to deposit any appreciable amount of silt, it will cover up their pastures, and their alfalfa, and their other small grain, and it is a great grain section. They simply won't be able to farm it. Senator OVERTON. Do you mean that it would make those roads impassable? Mr. STRICKLAND. A good many of them will be covered up. Senator OVERTON. For how long will it make them impassable? Mr. STRICKLAND. Well, it will make them impassable as long as the water stays on them. Senator OVERTON. That is not to exceed a week, according to the testimony. Mr. STRICKLAND. All right. Senator OVERTON. Some of them say only a day or 24 hours. Mr. STRICKLAND. They can't get over them. There are a good many improved sand-clay roads in that territory. Well, if they are covered up, it will be several more weeks before they dry out sufficient for traffic to use them. Senator OVERTON. Have you any concrete highways? Mr. STRICKLAND. Yes, sir; and there are quite a number of churches-do you remember how many, Mr. Ferguson? Mr. FERGUSON. There are five churches. Mr. STRICKLAND. Five churches in this valley. Senator OVERTON. All five of them? Mr. STRICKLAND. Yes, sir. Now then, this valley has a lot of historical interest, from the time of the Revolutionary War down to now. Incidentally, there are in the valley two homes of Daniel Boone, where it is definitely known that he lived for a long time before he went West. They will be inundated. And it has many things in connection with the past history of our country that are sacred to those people. It isn't a question of money value for their farms, but it has a historical interest that is sacred to them. Incidentally, the valley has some of the finest homes in that end of the State. The founder of the city of Lenoir has a fine home out there that has come down to him from his ancestors, and it was the headquarters of the American Army during the time of the Revolutionary War. It stands up there in that valley, and it will be inundated. That has some historical interest to the people of both Caldwell and Wilkes Counties, and we hope that this committee will help us to preserve those things. Senator OVERTON. Have you any land in the basin above the dams? Mr. STRICKLAND. No, sir; I do not have. I am simply representing this organization as an attorney. All my property is located in the city of Lenoir. Senator OVERTON. Have these historical sites been converted into museums? Mr. STRICKLAND. No; they are still in Senator OVERTON (interposing). Private ownership? Mr. STRICKLAND. The private ownership of the families through which they have descended from generation to generation. Senator MCCLELLAN. Are you thoroughly satisfied that the people up in those valleys where the inundation will occur are unanimously opposed to this? That is often true in any. of these projects, we realize that, that a fellow doesn't want to give up his home. Still, it is something that ought not to be disregarded. I don't want to disregard it, and I am trying to find out, as the chairman said awhile ago, where the interest of the greatest number will be served, and some sacrifices have to be made sometimes for the benefit of the greatest number. But I wondered if apparently you are making a showing here that it is unanimous or practically unanimous as to the people who will be disturbed by it in dislocating their homes, that they are very much opposed to it? Mr. STRICKLAND. I can say this: They were not all at that meeting the other night, because we could not get word to them in time, but when the matter was up a year or two ago they were unanimous, 100 percent, in opposition to it, and I am satisfied that they will be so again. Senator MCCLELLAN. Now there is Mr. Weise, who appeared here and testified yesterday. Mr. STRICKLAND. Yes, sir. Senator MCCLELLAN. He pointed out that while he had opposed the multiple-purpose dam, that since there was being substituted for it this proposal, that he now felt that this was fully justified, as I understood his testimony. I wondered now if a number of people up in the valley share that view, the view that he expressed yesterday. Mr. STRICKLAND. No, sir; that is the reason that Mr. Tom Ferguson over there was elected chairman of the committee the other night. The people of the valley do not share that feeling. Senator MCCLELLAN. You don't think any appreciable number of them have changed in their position? Mr. STRICKLAND. No. We changed for the reason that Mr. Weise went to Wilkes County without our knowledge. Senator MCCLELLAN. You did not change? Mr. STRICKLAND. No; and we knew nothing about it until after he had gone over. Incidentally, he did not go to the meeting last Thursday night, and he came with the Wilkes people up here. They have been fighting for it all the time. Why he changed, I don't know. But I am satisfied: that the same people, the same number of people, are opposed to it this time that were before. Senator MCCLELLAN. You said something, too, about not being interested in power, that you didn't need power up there. Is that the position that all of you take, substantially, that as far as the power project is concerned, you don't need more power in that vicinity? Mr. STRICKLAND. That is correct. } Senator MCCLELLAN. And that it would not be economically feasible because the value of the power would only pay a little more, you said, than one percent of the cost? Mr. STRICKLAND. That was the testimony of the Army engineers 2 years ago. I have got a record of that. There is one other thing that I want to mention while I am here. Senator Hoey will know who I am talking about when I call his name. It is my information that Mr. V. T. Guire, who is one of the most prominent citizens in Caldwell County, has been represented as being in favor of the dam project to at least some of the Representatives in Washington and maybe to some of the Senators; and I just handed Senator Hoey a letter a while ago in which he states that that is not true. Senator HOEY. I will say that it had not been represented to me that Mr. Guire was in favor of it. Mr. STRICKLAND. Congressman Doughton tells me that Mr. Weise represented to him that Mr. Guire was in favor of it. Senator HOEY. That has not been represented to me. Mr. STRICKLAND. That was the reason for that letter. Senator GOSSETT. What is the distance between the upper dam and the lower dam? Mr. STRICKLAND. I cannot tell you the exact distance. Mr. STRICKLAND. I have had the site pointed out to me, of the location of the two dams, but I can't tell the exact distance. Colonel HERB. It is about 9 miles between the lower dam site and the upper dam site. Senator GOSSETT. What percent of that distance will be inundated by the construction of these dams? Mr. STRICKLAND. It will be all the way from the first to the upper. Colonel FERINGA. The inundation will be only for a comparatively short period of time, but I will have to look up the distance. Senator MCCLELLAN. About how far would it inundate up above the upper dam? Colonel FERINGA. I will have to look it up. I don't know, I can't answer that. Senator MCCLELLAN. Let's place that in the record. Colonel FERINGA. Yes, sir; we will insert that information in the record. Mr. JONES. Fifteen miles, I have understood from the engineers. Colonel FERINGA. We will look it up, sir. Mr. JONES. That was with a lower dam that the proposed dam. Mr. STRICKLAND. I would like to ask this committee to give us a sufficient length of time to contact the balance of the citizens in that valley so that they may register their protest if they so desire, and if they do not so desire I will be glad to convey to Senator Hoey the information as to how many are in favor of it. Senator MCCLELLAN. Mr. Chairman, couldn't they be submitted within the next few days? It will be a few days or week before we act on this. Could they not be permitted to file additional petitions? Senator OVERTON. They may do so. We have got to bring these hearings to a very rapid close unless we want to let the bill go over to another session of Congress, and then we will have to have a new flood-control bill that will have to go through the House and Senate again. Senator MCCLELLAN. I had that in mind. I knew we did not want to hold up this bill. Senator OVERTON. Any protests that come in in time will be put in the record, but we cannot hold the record back for that purpose, I don't think. Mr. STRICKLAND. They will be in within this week, I am satisfied of that. Senator HOEY. Now, Mr. Chairman, Mr. Allen wanted a few minutes rebuttal. Senator OVERTON. All right, Mr. Allen. FURTHER STATEMENT OF WILLIAM M. ALLEN Mr. ALLEN. Chairman Overton and members of the committee; I am utterly astounded at the statements made by Mr. Strickland. I cannot conceive of a man making the statements that he has made. So, therefore, I want to read from the record, gentlemen, not what I say or anything else, but from the record itself. At a meeting held at the courthouse in Lenoir on October 17, 1945, Mr. W. H. Strickland of Lenoir made this statement, according to the record: Mr. STRICKLAND he says his name is W. A. Strickland and he asks Colonel Larsen some questions Well, that is what we wanted to find out. Our position, or rather the position of this group here, is that we would be onposed to any sort of proposition that would flood Yadkin Valley above North Wilkesboro permanently, and we want to go on record here tonight as being opposed to that. Now if some system can be devised to control the flow of waters in the Yadkin Valley so that these people who are living there can continue to operate their farms except during unusual flood seasons, all right, then we are for it. Otherwise, we are not. That is reading from the record of the Army engineers report at the public hearing held in Caldwell County on October 17, 1945. Mr. Strickland said he didn't know anything about the motion. Reading from the record, page 60, the motion was made. Mr. GUIRE. In order that something definite may be presented to this body, I move for its adoption. All in favor please stand. (Audience stood in a body.) This was in Lenoir. Mr. WEISE. All opposed please stand. There are none opposed. Mr. STRICKLAND. I mentioned the malaria and mosquito control in my talk. Insofar as fish is concerned, we are not concerned about them. Senator OVERTON. What was the motion? Mr. ALLEN. The motion was this: Resolved, That 250 citizens from the Yadkin Valley go on record as favoring a new survey of the Yadkin Valley and tributaries with respect to controlling |