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By Mr. O'CONNOR:

Q. The fact that in your examination of your records and the examination which the committee made of the records which you furnished, that there be unused portions of tickets unaccounted for, we could not make a definite statement that these are lost or misused or unused because actually you don't know whether they have been used or not, isn't that right?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. We would have to be cautious in any statement the committee makes concerning these unused portions?

A. Yes.

Q. I wonder how we could be more specific in connection with a statement like this? I am just asking for information because if we made a statement that x number of dollars worth of unused tickets are hanging around some place, and yet it was an error in the billings to you, or the like, we are not on too strong ground.

Mr. NEDZI. We could only repeat what Mr. Grayson has testified to, that there just hasn't been ample opportunity to examine these records in sufficient detail.

Mr. O'CONNOR. There is something of real concern in making a report on this. I know the committee wouldn't want to make a statement like

Mr. HAYS. Off the record.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. DICKINSON. One other question, Mr. Grayson: Do you have much trouble with other companies and businesses, such as you do with the Federal Government and its buying of tickets, as far as missing tickets and incomplete records are concerned? Is this unique with us?

The WITNESS. We seldom get inquiries of this type, sir.

Mr. DICKINSON. I suppose that means that you would have gotten similar inquiries if others had the trouble we apparently had? The WITNESS. Yes.

Mr. DICKINSON. I think probably growing out of the investigation of this committee, we would like to come up with some sort of recommendation for our own regulation within the Government as to how we can best avoid any duplication of past experiences in the future. Do you have anything you would like to volunteer on this as to what method we had better go to?

The WITNESS. I believe it would be best from an understanding of the entire operating procedure of the air travel plan that it not be done in committees such as this. It takes a lot of detail and a lot of time.

Mr. DICKINSON. I have in mind particularly a person would be delegated to go down and buy 20 tickets in a block and arbitrarily assign various names to them. Put them all on one credit card. One signature for the entire lot, as far as we know. Then we never know actually who takes those trips and you don't either because you have no way of verifying who gets on the plane. This is a fact that we have found. Is this more or less what you say is true too?

The WITNESS. Yes.

Mr. DICKINSON. Within your system can you think of any reasonable checks and balances or regulations that could be imposed on the use of these tickets or the purchase of these tickets?

The WITNESS. There is no practical method of identifying the passenger and the ticket at the time of usage. From a sales standpoint, there is a form called a one-trip air travel order which, when a person who has a "Q" card, for example, wants to buy a ticket for someone other than himself, he can issue a one-trip air travel order which requires this individual to sign his name as having received that ticket. The ticket is issued to him and he signs for it for his transportation.

Mr. DICKINSON. It is a technical matter. Where would he sign this? Would he go to the ticket office himself and pick it up and sign for it right there?

The WITNESS. Yes. This could not prevent that person from giving the ticket to somebody else to use. The identification is still a problem.

Mr. HAYS. Mr. Grayson, you said you seldom had inquiries of this type. Obviously you wouldn't have had this inquiry unless somebody brought this to our attention. They have made quite a thing of it and I don't criticize the person who did this. Would it be possible for the president of a small corporation having a "Q" card to buy a ticket for his wife and himself and put some other name on his wife's ticket and maybe some other name on his own and use it and as long as the corporation didn't inquire about it, you would have no reason to inquire, would you?

The WITNESS. That is right.

Mr. HAYS. It could happen?

The WITNESS. Yes.

Mr. HAYS. And unless it was brought to the attention of the person against whom the offense was committed, and they inquired of you, there would be no inquiry?

Mr. DICKINSON. If I have a ticket and it is for Eastern Airlines, and for some reason I missed the plane or decided to go at a different time and I wanted to go on American Airlines, I could take your ticket to the American counter. What do they do? They change that ticket, or do they issue a new ticket?

The WITNESS. It depends on the circumstances. Normally they will try to honor the ticket without changing it. If it is a rerouting, they will probably have to reissue it.

Mr. DICKINSON. What will they do with the original ticket of Eastern's?

The WITNESS. That would be used to support the sale transaction of the new ticket and then they would bill us.

Mr. DICKINSON. Would they send that ticket to you?

The WITNESS. Yes, sir. Not as an ATP transaction, but an interline ticket transaction.

Mr. DICKINSON. Would this be true for Trans-Caribbean and all the major lines?

The WITNESS. Standard procedure.

Mr. DICKINSON. I am still trying to find somebody's missing tickets and I was wondering if this might be what happened to them?

The WITNESS. The problem of missing tickets is probably a great deal related to what you are referring to. The records we get from these other carriers when they bill us for these tickets, some of them are in numerical listings which are easily accessible. Some are just

in groups of 200 with a billing wrapped around them and we have no numeric reference for those. We don't know whether this ticket was used as originally issued for transportation as issued, or whether it was honored by British Overseas, Pan American, Trans-Texas or whom, and in trying to locate this ticket we go to the most logical carrier who would have accepted that, based on routing, and if we don't find it we go through many carrier records to try to find it. That is the extent of the research which makes it difficult.

Mr. DICKINSON. Many of these tickets we are looking for might have been exchanged and just lost

The WITNESS. Not lost. It is just a matter of locating them.

For example, we honor 1.5 million tickets and sell 750,000 a month. The large number of ticket transactions

Mr. HAYS. I am surprised you found as many as you did.

By Mr. TAYLER:

Q. This extensive search you just described for tickets on other airlines, when the original purchase was made on Eastern, did you conduct that kind of a search for this committee?

A. Yes, sir. Not to the total extent of saying we have 130 carriers billing us, and we check every carrier.

Q. You just checked the most logical carrier in each instance?
A. Yes.

By Mr. O'CONNOR:

Q. Mr. Grayson, these are executive sessions. I wonder if for the record you would identify the gentlemen who have accompanied you and their positions with Eastern Airlines?

A. Mr. John B. Warner, supervisor, air travel plan accounting. He is headquartered in Miami.

Mr. C. J. Powers, supervisor, passenger statistics, Miami.

Mr. RUSSELL. Mr. Chairman, may the record also show that the search that Mr. Grayson referred to was undertaken pursuant to the subpena requiring production of records?

Mr. HAYS. The record will so show.

The WITNESS. I would like to say I appreciate the courtesy of the committee and Mr. O'Connor in taking us at this time, so hopefully we can get out of town before the snow gets us.

Mr. HAYS. Mrs. Ellison, will you raise your right hand and be sworn?

Whereupon BETTY D. ELLISON, having been duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows:

By Mr. O'CONNOR:

Q. State your name and address for the record.

A. Betty D. Ellison. My address is 108 Wilmington Place SW., Washington, D.C.

Mr. HAYS. Mrs. Ellison, your appearance before this committee will be in executive session unless you request a public session. If your appearance is in executive session, the press and public will not be admitted to the hearing room and pursuant to paragraph 26, House of Representatives rule XI, your testimony may not be released or used in public session without the consent of the committee. If your

appearance is in public session, the public and news reporters will be admitted. But television and news photographers will be excluded. I now ask you whether you choose to appear in executive session or public session.

The WITNESS. I choose to appear in executive session.

Mr. HAYS. Thank you, Mrs. Ellison.

You have been informed that you could have counsel with you if you wanted to?

The WITNESs. No; I haven't.

Mr. HAYS. I will then so inform you and if you desire counsel, we will give you time to obtain one. If you desire to proceed without it, we will proceed.

The WITNESS. I desire to proceed without counsel.

Mr. HAYS. Did you receive a copy of paragraph 26, rule XI, along with your letter?

The WITNESS. Yes, I did.

Mr. HAYS. You were here when I read my opening statement yesterday?

The WITNESS. I was here.

Mr. HAYS. And you understood it?

The WITNESS. Yes.

By Mr. O'CONNOR:

Q. Mrs. Ellison, where are you employed at the present time? A. At the present time I am not working. I stopped working with the committee at the end of September because I had a baby and I had to stay home.

Q. September 1966?

A. That is right.

Q. When did you go to work for the committee?

A. I went to work for the committee in September 1965.

Q. Would that be September 1965?

A. That is right.

Q. Were you on the full committee or the ad hoc committee?

A. Full committee.

Q. What were your duties?

A. I kept the legislative calendar for the committee and did various office duties.

Q. In connection with your duties was it necessary to travel?

A. I only made one trip and that was to New York.

Q. When was that trip made?

A. I do not know the exact date. It must have been around July. Q. Of what year?

A. This year.

Q. 1966?

A. Yes.

Q. That is the only trip you made to New York?

A. Yes, it is.

Q. Mrs. Ellison, the reason you have been called before the committee is because when you were contacted in connection with the investigation you refused to give any information concerning that trip.

A. That is right.

Q. I am going to ask you was the trip made on official business?

A. When I made the trip, when I got to New York, all I did was fill out some cards from a mailing list, calling a meeting. What kind of meeting, I do not know. All I did was type the names on the postal cards.

Q. What type of mailing list was it?

A. I do not know. I just had a list of names to type, names on the postal cards. I did not ask any questions.

Q. At what office was this typing done?

A. It was done in the office of his church because they had typewriters we could use.

Q. I think Mr. Powell had a congressional office at his church; did he not?

not.

A. I do not know if he had a congressional office at his church or That is the first time I had been there. All I know, we were there using the typewriters; that is all.

Q. How did you make the trip to New York?

A. I drove my car to New York.

Q. Did anyone accompany you?

A. Yes.

Q. Who?

A. Three other people: Odell Clark, Goldie Baldwin, Charles Jackson.

Q. On the way up did you discuss the purpose of the trip?

A. No; we did not.

Q. In other words, you were just told to go to New York and nothing was said about what was going to happen after you got to New York? A. That is right. I did not ask any questions.

Q. When you got to New York, they told you to type these cards? A. That is right.

Q. How long were you in New York typing cards?

A. We got there about 9 o'clock in the evening and we typed I guess around 12. It was too late to drive back so we stayed overnight. Q. You came back the next day?

A. That is right. Early the next morning.

Q. Did you claim per diem?

A. Yes, I did because I drove my car.

Q. You got allowance for car mileage and also per

and you claimed that?

A. Yes.

diem overnight

Q. Is that the only trip you made with the committee?
A. That is the only trip I made.

Q. Could you think back about the cards you typed?

A. There is nothing to think about. I told you all I know.

Mr. HAYS. Were they blank on the other side or was there a message on the other side or do you recall?

The WITNESS. I do not remember the exact wording of the message. All I knew is we were calling a meeting. What kind, I do not know. It did not say on the card.

Mr. HAYS. Were there very many cards?

The WITNESS. Quite a few.

Mr. HAYS. How many worked on the typing?

The WITNESS. There were three of us.

Mr. HAYS. How many would you say you typed?

The WITNESS. I don't know offhand because they were split up.

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