A. No; I cannot. I cannot. May I see the other voucher again, please?

Q. It would appear that that $300 voucher was for the purchase of an airline travel ticket in connection with your trip.

A. Well, of course, I don't remember this transaction but-yes, yes. For $355

Q. Could it be, Mr. Anderson, that you purchased your travel ticket to the west coast with your own funds and are claiming reimbursement on that particular voucher? I might suggest to you that the reason we asked the question is we have no travel ticket from the committee accounts, credit cards, reflecting that trip that you took there, and I am just suggesting that the $322 voucher was to reimburse you for the airline ticket. Do you recall purchasing an airline ticket from your own funds?

A. All I can say is I don't recall it. I could have done it. I might have. I know things are done in this way. I just don't remember this transaction.

Q. Well, in connection with your airline travel, was there ever a time that you didn't acquire the ticket through an airline credit card? A. I didn't always; yes, there have been such occasions; yes. But I don't remember that amount, although it may have happened. I don't remember spending that much money for a ticket.

Mr. HAYS. Off the record.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. HAYS. Can I ask you one other thing: Is this your signature? The WITNESS. They are both my signatures.

By Mr. O'CONNOR:

Q. No question about the signatures?

A. Yes; that is right.

Mr. HAYS. If the invoice is attached, that is it, that explains it. The WITNESS. Well, that would be it, but I just don't remember that amount. But I made a great many trips last year and I just— I don't remember all of those trips in detail. I do know that I did pay money out of my pocket.

By Mr. O'CONNOR:

Q. We have only one substantial trip in 1965, that was AtlantaTallahassee, Tallahassee-Atlanta, Atlanta-District of Columbia, which you probably went down to Tallahassee and had to go through Atlanta. That is the way your routing was. The others were just New York and Washington.

A. Well, now-of course, you don't have an account of all of them because, for instance in the New England States, in September I traveled

Mr. DEVINE. If Congressman Hawkins and Congresswoman Mink made the same trip, they should be reflected?

The WITNESS. Yes; I was with them. I was the staffman on the tickets.

Mr. DICKINSON. Did you pay for them, their tickets, perchance? The WITNESS. That could have been it.

Mr. DICKINSON. That could be it.

The WITNESS. But I don't remember it. I do remember there was a lot of confusion as to the time we were going to leave, because

just before then the Elementary and Secondary Education Act was on the House floor and we were waiting to see what would happen with it and, of course, when the time came-it was the practice over there to issue the ticket within hours before you left. And so, of course, sometimes we had to do things very quickly.

Mr. DICKINSON. You don't remember is it your recollection that you probably did buy their tickets?

The WITNESS. It could have happened, I don't remember, I don't remember. If your records indicate that those are the only trips that I made, then we haven't reported some that were made. Because I traveled, especially between September and October, I traveled to the Midwest, to Indiana, to Ohio

By Mr. O'CONNOR:

Q. September of 1965?

A. Yes. I traveled to the New England States, to Boston, to Connecticut, to Rhode Island.

Q. I beg your pardon. I was looking at the sheet of the travel for which no subsistence was claimed.

Q. Yes, there are many other trips. I see the Boston trip listed. A. Now, as for those trips which I am said to have made for which no subsistence was claimed, do you have the vouchers for those? Q. We have no vouchers.

A. You have no vouchers.

Q. Because no subsistence was claimed.

A. No; but whenever we made trips didn't we sign a voucher for the ticket?

Q. This is what we are asking you.

Mr. DICKINSON. Somebody did.

Mr. O'CONNOR. Somebody did. We have the six tickets-
The WITNESS. Apparently-

By Mr. O'CONNOR:

Q. We have the six tickets

A. No, but I am talking about a different one. May I see those? Q. Yes.

A. Because I would recognize my signature.

Q. Well, your signature is not on those tickets. Those are the tickets that are made out by the airline office.

A. Oh, I see, I see.

Mr. HAYS. Mr. Jones.

Mr. JONES. I just want to inquire, did you have an airline credit card?

The WITNESS. No; I didn't.

Mr. JONES. You had to rely on somebody else in the committee getting your tickets?

The WITNESS. Yes; that is right. We applied to the chief clerk. Mr. HAYS. May I follow up on that?

And in that connection you have already testified that this one ticket which you were showed, marked "Dargans No. 2," was not your handwriting?

The WITNESS. That was not my handwriting.

Mr. HAYS. Therefore you did not make the trip in the shuttle? The WITNESS. It was not my handwriting.

Mr. HAYS. In order to get a shuttle ticket, it has to be gotten on the plane and somebody has to sign it?

The WITNESS. Yes, that is right.

Mr. HAYS. So would you say that you didn't make that trip? The WITNESS. I wouldn't say that. I would say that is not my handwriting.

Mr. HAYS. That would be pretty conclusive evidence that you didn't make the trip then, because if you had you would have signed it yourself.

The WITNESS. I know, but

By Mr. O'Connor:

Q. All your various trips to New York, of what duration would they be?

A. Well, many would be just for 1 day, many would be for the weekend, many would be for 2 days perhaps, and so forth.

Mr. HAYS. Could we go back to this New York thing again. In addition to the fact that you have testified that isn't your signature, you have also testified that on that particular day you were on the west coast.

The WITNESS. I was on the west coast.

Mr. HAYS. So you could pretty surely say, then, you didn't make the trip.

The WITNESS. I reckon you could. I was on the west coast, I remember being on the west coast, I remember it almost day by day, so I could not have made the trip.

By Mr. O'CONNOR:

Q. Here is the duplicate of voucher No. 8045-is that the number? A. No, but with regard to these tickets, as a matter of practice— well, I remember on some occasions having signed a request. I don't know what it was called.

Mr. HAYS. T-4?

The WITNESS. Some record which would authorize me to-authorize the ticket to be issued.

By Mr. O'CONNOR:

Q. I think what is of concern to us mainly, Mr. Anderson, is the apparent inconsistency in claiming subsistence. You didn't maintain a residence or an apartment in New York, did you?

A. Well, I had friends there and relatives. My brother is in New York. But I never remember having gone there and not claimed subsistence, but it could have happened.

Q. Taxis and travel to and from the airport, they are all legitimate

expenses.

A. Yes.

Q. The only thing we are endeavoring to clear up is whether or not you recall making any trip to New York and not claiming sub

sistence.

A. As a matter of habit, frankly, it mystifies me that 14 were made. For instance, I am not an independently wealthy person but I could have I am rather absentminded, I could have made a trip and not claimed subsistence, of course. I would have felt very bad about it when I found out, but it couldn't have been 14.

Q. Not 14. Six. Six trips.

A. Six trips, without claiming subsistence?

Q. Yes.

A. Well, your audit says it was 14.

Mr. DICKINSON. Total of 14.

Mr. HAYS. Fourteen trips all together in which you claimed no subsistence, not necessarily to New York, but to New York and/or other places. And you think it is unlikely that there could have been that many?

The WITNESS. Yes.

By Mr. O'CONNOR:

Q. For instance this trip to Tallahassee, Fla., there is no subsistence voucher on that. Our audit is incomplete because we have not been able to verify the dates on it to this time, but there is an airline ticket, and it is among those, District of Columbia-Atlanta, Atlanta-Tallahassee, Tallahassee-Atlanta, Atlanta-District of Columbia. And the trip was started on April 23, 1965. And we don't have the date that it terminated.

Mr. HAYS. Do you ever recall going to Tallahassee, Fla.?
The WITNESS. Yes, I do.

Mr. HAYS. You did go there?

The WITNESS. Yes. Well, that trip was made.

By Mr. O'Connor:

Q. You recall the occasion for it, the reason?

A. Oh, yes.

It was to look into-it was a request partly of Florida A. & M. Čollege to look into the possibilities of a poverty program there.

Mr. HAYS. Did anyone go with you on that trip?

The WITNESS. No.

By Mr. O'Connor:

Q. You went down by yourself?

A. Yes; I did.

Q. Do you recall it was of any particular duration, 1, 2, 3 days? A. I don't remember the length of time. Well, it could have-I think it was of short duration.

Q. I think you are right, because apparently the airline ticket office shows that it was used on April 22, which was your date out of Washington, and used April 23, Atlanta. But then there is no return apparently indicated. But these are bookkeeping problems that we have encountered all through this inquiry in connection with some of these airline tickets.

A. Well, let me say with regard to the

Q. But it seems that you would have

A. No; on that occasion I wouldn't have made claim for subsistence because my family home is Tallahassee, Fla.

Q. Oh, is it?

A. And I would have stayed with my parents and would have been happy to have gone on that occasion. But it was a legitimate trip. I addressed the Florida A. & M. College, as a matter of fact, and I did look into the poverty program there with Edwin Norwood. He was the chief man there. I spent most of my time on my office duties. But that trip was made.

Q. Did you stay over a couple of days with your family?

A. I think I stayed 2 days; yes.

Q. Well, that probably accounts for the reason no per diem was claimed, no subsistence.

A. Yes.

Mr. HAYS. Mr. Anderson, you have apparently been a very cooperative witness and I think it is fair to point out to you that on at least one occasion we have developed so far that your name was used on a ticket without your knowledge. It was without your knowledge. The WITNESS. Apparently it was.

Mr. HAYS. Did you ever know that this practice was going on in that committee, buying tickets with somebody else's name on them? The WITNESS. I didn't know this; no.

Mr. HAYS. When was the first time you ever became aware of it? The WITNESS. When-well, you heard it rumored about after this investigation opened, but these things-and that is when I began to think about them, think about instances in which they might have occurred, trying to piece together in my mind what sorts of procedures we might have had which would allow this sort of thing to happen.

By Mr. O'CONNOR:

Q. Was it done were you aware of it while you were employed by the committee that this was being done?

A. I was not; no.

Q. Do you ever recall authorizing anyone to purchase airline tickets in your name, that you were not going to use?

A. No; I don't remember ever having done so.

Q. I notice that after you got back from your Tallahassee trip, almost immediately you went to New York, on April 25, returning to Washington on the 27th; you went up on a Sunday and Tuesday, no per diem was claimed on that. Could you recall that?

A. I don't remember it, but it would have escaped my notice not to have claimed per diem on a trip of that official nature.

Q. Well, could it have been that this was a continuation of your trip from Tallahassee?

A. No; it couldn't have; no.

Q. Six trips during this period without claiming subsistence, you have explained the one to Tallahassee but these six New York trips give us some concern.

A. Well, I don't understand them, really.

Q. You don't?

A. I really don't.

Q. Are those two vouchers marked? They haven't? There is the receipt on that one voucher that accompanied it and all it is is for the same amount. Would you look at the receipt.

A. Oh, yes.

Q. Does that refresh your recollection as to how the ticket was obtained?