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The WITNESS. Yes; this is my signature. Those trips were to Oregon, and I am doing it from memory. I haven't-my records, unfortunately, are not as complete as they should be. But as Í recall, the trips were to Oregon, to San Francisco, to Los Angeles, to Sacramento.
By Mr. O'CONNOR: That voucher indicates that you were not in Washington, D.C., on March 28, 1965, is that correct?
A. Yes; it does.
Q. And would you so testify that you were not in Washington, D.Č., on March 28, 1965?
A. Well, I know what you are trying to say, that during the same period I
Q. Well, I will be very frank with you. There is an airline ticket with your name on it, on the New York shuttle, Washington, D.C., to New York.
A. Could I see the voucher for that?
Nay we have Dargans No. 3, I think it is. I believe that is the exhibit.
Mr. TAYLER. No; it isn't No. 3.
Mr. Hays. It is those four tickets that were issued on that Sunday. I don't know what number it is, but we are referring to Dargans exhibits, anyway.
By Mr. O'CONNOR: Q. You might examine this voucher at the same time. No; just to look at it.
A. Well, this also is my signature.
Q. On the record, Mr. Anderson, I show you Dargans exhibit No. 2, which is an in-shuttle flight ticket, New York to Washington, to New York, either way, dated March 28, 1965, and ask if that is your signature on the ticket.
A. No. Which one would be mine?
By Mr. O'CONNOR:
you see, my a's are almost like s's.
Q. Do you have any knowledge as to who would sign your name to a ticket such as that?
A. No; I don't.
Q. Were you aware that your name was being signed to various travel tickets?
A. I was not; no.
Q. Have you ever heard that your name was being used in connection with travels?
Q. I now show you voucher—let me see the voucher number on that, please voucher No. 7681, in the amount of $355.32, and ask you if you can recall the purpose of that voucher?
& vest that is but that is not my signature. As you will see, my
A. No; I cannot. I cannot. May I see the other voucher again, please?
Q. It would appear that that $300 voucher was for the purchase of an airline travel ticket in connection with your trip.
A. Well, of course, I don't remember this transaction but-yes, yes. For $355
Q. Could it be, Mr. Anderson, that you purchased your travel ticket to the west coast with your own funds and are claiming reimbursement on that particular voucher? I might suggest to you that the reason we asked the question is we have no travel ticket from the committee accounts, credit cards, reflecting that trip that you took there, and I am just suggesting that the $322 voucher was to reimburse you for the airline ticket. Do you recall purchasing an airline ticket from your own funds?
A. All I can say is I don't recall it. I could have done it. I might have. I know things are done in this way. I just don't remember this transaction.
Q. Well, in connection with your airline travel, was there ever a time that you didn't acquire the ticket through an airline credit card?
A. I didn't always; yes, there have been such occasions; yes. But I don't remember that amount, although it may have happened. I don't remember spending that much money for a ticket.
Mr. Hays. Off the record.
By Mr. O'CONNOR:
The WITNESS. Well, that would be it, but I just don't remember that amount. But I made a great many trips last year and I justI don't remember all of those trips in detail. I do know that I did pay money out of my pocket.
By Mr. O'CONNOR: Q. We have only one substantial trip in 1965, that was AtlantaTallahassee, Tallahassee-Atlanta, Atlanta-District of Columbia, which you probably went down to Tallahassee and had to go through Atlanta. That is the way your routing was.
The others were just New York and Washington.
A. Well, now-of course, you don't have an account of all of them because, for instance in the New England States, in September I traveled
Mr. DEVINE. If Congressman Hawkins and Congresswoman Mink made the same trip, they should be reflected?
The WITNESS. Yes; I was with them. I was the staffman on the tickets.
Mr. DICKINSON. Did you pay for them, their tickets, perchance?
The WITNESS. But I don't remember it. I do remember there was a lot of confusion as to the time we were going to leave, because just
before then the Elementary and Secondary Education Act was on the House floor and we were waiting to see what would happen with it and, of course, when the time came it was the practice over there to issue the ticket within hours before you left. And so, of course, sometimes we had to do things very quickly.
Mr. DICKINSON. You don't remember—is it your recollection that you probably did buy their tickets?
The WITNESS. It could have happened, I don't remember, I don't remember. If your records indicate that those are the only trips that I made, then we haven't reported some that were made. Because I traveled, especially between September and October, I traveled to the Midwest, to Indiana, to Ohio
By Mr. O'CONNOR: Q. September of 1965?
A. Yes. I traveled to the New England States, to Boston, to Connecticut, to Rhode Island.
Q. I beg your pardon. I was looking at the sheet of the travel for which no subsistence was claimed.
A. I see, I see, I see.
By Mr. O'CONNOR:
A. Now, as for those trips which I am said to have made for which no subsistence was claimed, do you have the vouchers for those?
Q. We have no vouchers.
A. No; but whenever we made trips didn't we sign a voucher for the ticket?
Q. This is what we are asking you.
By Mr. O'CONNOR:
Q. Well, your signature is not on those tickets. Those are the tickets that are made out by the airline office.
A. Oh, I see, I see.
Mr. JONES. I just want to inquire, did you have an airline credit card?
The WITNESS. No; I didn't.
Mr. Jones. You had to rely on somebody else in the committee getting your tickets?
The WITNESS. Yes; that is right. We applied to the chief clerk. Mr. Hays. May I follow up on that?
And in that connection you have already testified that this one ticket which you were showed, marked “Dargans No. 2," was not your handwriting?
The WITNESS. That was not my handwriting.
Mr. Hays. In order to get a shuttle ticket, it has to be gotten on the plane and somebody has to sign it?
The WITNESS. Yes, that is right.
The WITNESS. I wouldn't say that. I would say that is not my handwriting.
Mr. Hays. That would be pretty conclusive evidence that you didn't make the trip then, because if you had you would have signed it yourself. The WITNESS. I know, but
By Mr. O'CONNOR: Q. All your various trips to New York, of what duration would they be?
A. Well, many would be just for 1 day, many would be for the weekend, many would be for 2 days perhaps, and so forth.
Mr. Hays. Could we go back to this New York thing again. In addition to the fact that you have testified that isn't your signature, you have also testified that on that particular day you were on the west coast.
The WITNESS. I was on the west coast.
The WITNESS. I reckon you could. I was on the west coast, I remember being on the west coast, I remember it almost day by day, so I could not have made the trip.
By Mr. O'CONNOR: Q. Here is the duplicate of voucher No. 8045—is that the number?
A. No, but with regard to these tickets, as a matter of practicewell, I remember on some occasions having signed a request. I don't know what it was called.
Mr. Hays. T-4?
The WITNESS. Some record which would authorize me to-authorize the ticket to be issued.
By Mr. O'CONNOR: Q. I think what is of concern to us mainly, Mr. Anderson, is the apparent inconsistency in claiming subsistence. You didn't maintain a residence or an apartment in New York, did you?
A. Well, I had friends there and relatives. My brother is in New York. But I never remember having gone there and not claimed subsistence, but it could have happened.
Q. Taxis and travel to and from the airport, they are all legitimate expenses.
Q. The only thing we are endeavoring to clear up is whether or not you recall making any trip to New York and not claiming subsistence.
A. As a matter of habit, frankly, it mystifies me that 14 were made. For instance, I am not an independently wealthy person but I could have I am rather absentminded, I could have made a trip and not claimed subsistence, of course. I would have felt very bad about it when I found out, but it couldn't have been 14.
Q. Not 14. Six. Six trips.
. Mr. DICKINSON. Total of 14.
Mr. Hays. Fourteen trips all together in which you claimed no subsistence, not necessarily to New York, but to New York and/or other places. And you think it is unlikely that there could have been that many? The WITNESS. Yes.
By Mr. O'CONNOR: Q. For instance this trip to Tallahassee, Fla., there is no subsistence voucher on that. Our audit is incomplete because we have not been able to verify the dates on it to this time, but there is an airline ticket, and it is among those, District of Columbia-Atlanta, Atlanta-Tallahassee, Tallahassee-Atlanta, Atlanta-District of Columbia. And the trip was started on April 23, 1965. And we don't have the date that it terminated.
Mr. Hays. Do you ever recall going to Tallahassee, Fla.?
By Mr. O'CONNOR:
A. Oh, yes. It was to look into—it was a request partly of Florida A. & M. College to look into the possibilities of a poverty program there.
Mr. Hays. Did anyone go with you on that trip?
By Mr. O'CONNOR:
Å. I don't remember the length of time. Well, it could have I think it was of short duration.
Q. I think you are right, because apparently the airline ticket office shows that it was used on April 22, which was your date out of Washington, and used April 23, Atlanta. But then there is no return apparently indicated. But these are bookkeeping problems that we have encountered all through this inquiry in connection with some of these airline tickets.
A. Well, let me say with regard to the
A. No; on that occasion I wouldn't have made claim for subsistence because my family home is Tallahassee, Fla.
Q. Oh, is it?