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By Mr. O'CONNOR: Q. If you took a trip to Miami in company with six members of the Congressman's staff, you would recall that trip, would you not?
A. If we were assigned to go together, I would.
Q. Do you recall ever taking a trip with six members of the Congressman's staff?
A. I can't recall at this time. Q. On July 30 of 1965 until August 9, 1965, which is a period of 10 days or 11 days, were you with a party of six in Miami?
A. I testified to the fact I did go to Miami. I don't remember the date you mentioned.
Q. A large group of you went to Miami?
Q. That is three. Who would be the other three?
Q. On July 30, 1965, the travel records indicate that you, Miss Swann, Mr. Štoné, Miss Lewis that you have not named, Miss Himes that
you have not named, and Mr. Powell all went down on the same plane together. Is that the trip you refer to?
A. I don't know about the trip you refer to. The names you mentioned, other names, are not familiar to me as going on that flight.
Q. You would say that you have never traveled in a party composed of those names?
A. Of this flight you refer to, I know those people, but these names are not familiar to me as having traveled on the plane to Miami.
Q. With you.
Mr. DEVINE. As the chief investigator of this committee, did you have an air travel card issued to you?
The WITNESS. No, sir; I never wanted one.
Mr. DEVINE. You used Miss Dargans', the chairman's, or someone else's?
he WITNESS. Never the chairman's. I used the Education and Labor Committee card signed by Derrickson, or Stone's, or I got a ticket from the chief clerk.
Mr. JONES. You have indicated that you were a troubleshooter and investigator and you get over the country: Do you make a report to anybody when you return from those trips?
The WITNESS. I make out a report in many instances, and in many instances there are followups, a matter of seeing people. These are times, also, when it was a matter of conference and reporting what I had done.
Mr. JONES. Would these reports help you remember where you were on different dates if you had the reports with you?
The WITNESS. I know more or less where I was.
Mr. JONES. Tonight you have not been able to remember anything, though. I wondered if you had a secretary who was making notes of where you were.
The WITNESS. I don't recall any particular time that I didn't remember anything other than dates. Two years ago is not the best time to ask a person about to remember specific dates.
Mr. Jones. You could not remember the dates, what you went on, who went with you, and you could not remember many things. In other words, you have a poor memory, if I may say so.
The WITNESS. I remember at all times what I went on.
Mr. Jones. This committee, among other things, will make some recommendations as to how the committee should operate. It appears tonight, it emphasizes it more to me, that with the poor memory so many witnesses have had that if we had somebody in the office who would keep track of where these people are and the days they are working and the days they are not working, we might operate a little more efficiently. Would you agree with that?
The Witness. Efficiency I would be for 1 million percent. I would agree with you on anything that would bring that about.
Mr. JONES. Wouldn't that help efficiency, in your opinion?
Mr. JONES. I get tired of listening to this evasiveness. You have not given a correct answer tonight. These attorneys have asked you questions. You have evaded every answer.
The WITNESS. I wouldn't agree with you on that. You may say I didn't give the answer maybe that you expected me to give, but, remember, I haven't what you have up there. I don't know what you know. For you to expect me to answer the way you would like me to do, I would be the Congressman and you should be here.
Mr. JONES. That is all.
By Mr. TAYLER: Q. I will tell you something we know and I will ask you a question about what you know about it. Let's go back to the question Mr. O'Connor asked you about the records indicating that you were a traveler from the District of Columbia to Miami and Miami back to the District of Columbia, on July 30, 1965, and the return trip being made August 9, 1965. The records also do not indicate that you submitted any per diem voucher for such a trip, if you in fact made it.
I ask you, sir, do you have any recollection of making that trip?
A. As I testified to this gentleman, I have no recollection as to that specific trip and date.
Q. If you had in fact made the trip, would you have submitted an expense voucher?
A. If I in fact had made the trip and had had any expense, I would definitely have made an expense voucher.
Q. Would you have claimed per diem for that trip if you had in fact made it?
A. I would have unless there had been a situation where sometimes when I go places, I run into friends and I stay with them and have no expense. If I had any expense, I would have definitely made a per diem voucher.
Q. Wouldn't you say it was unusual to be out of town for 10 days in a place as far away as Miami and not have expenses and not claim
A. I would think so.
By Mr. O'CONNOR: Q. What you are saying is that you were not on that trip. Is that correct?
A. I didn't say that.
The WITNESS. He asked me if I would have made out a per diem voucher if I had stayed 10 days or 8 days. He said, “Isn't it unusual for someone to stay that long without having per diem?” I said “Yes, sir; it would be unusual.” That was the answer I gave.
Mr. Hays. Mr. Clark, I have traveled a good bit. In fact I am accused by some people of being quite a traveler. I realize it is difficult to remember every trip that you make as to dates some years ago, If somebody asked whether I went to Pittsburgh by car on such and such a day perhaps I could not tell and I perhaps would not have a record to show.
However, if I traveled in a group of six any time within the last 10 years, or even since I have been in Congress, if somebody asked me did I travel with the following five people I would be able to say yes or no, I did or didn't.
The WITNESS. I think I answered it.
Mr. Hays. Let me ask a question, and this is friendly: Did you or did you not travel to Miami with Miss Swann, Mr. Stone, Miss Lewis, Mr. Powell, and Miss Himes?
Thé WITNESS. Í testified to the fact that I traveled to Miami with Mr. Stone and the other names that he mentioned I could not testify that they were on the flight that I had been on. This is what I testified to.
Mr. Hays. In other words you didn't go on a party of six?
The WITNESS. Any time that I went I don't remember traveling at all with those people you mentioned.
Mr. Hays. You would have probably remembered if you had, wouldn't you?
The_WITNESS. These are people you mentioned on the travel. I think I would.
Mr. Hays. It would be safe to infer you just didn't go.
Mr. Hays. I don't know whether it will make you feel better but we had testimony you didn't go but your name was used. I don't know why
The WITNESS. Sir, you know what someone else testifies to, everyone has to stand on his own feet.
Mr. Hays. I would like you to say you did or didn't go.
The WITNESS. I would like to testify my way and then if I am asked 10 years from now as to next week I don't know how I would testify.
Mr. NEDZI. You testified you made one trip to Miami in 1966. To the best of your recollection did you make any trips to Miami in 1965?
The WITNESS. To the best of my recollection I don't believe I did. Mr. NEDZI. I have nothing further. Mr. Hays. Other questions? Mr. Clark, would you step out for just a moment, please? (Witness leaves room.) Mr. Hays. Off the record. (Discussion held off the record.)
Mr. Hays. Mr. Clark, we would like to excuse you. There is a remote possibility that something might come up we would want to ask about.
Are you going out of the country? Where will you be?
Mr. Hays. Can you give us a telephone number where we can get in touch with you if we did excuse you and needed you?
The WITNESS. Šir, as the resu't of what happened here, I have to drive back to New York tonight, pick up my wife and family and friends and we are driving away on vacation. We are going to Vermont and making a tour.
Mr. Hays. You will not be in any one place?
The WITNESS. No particular p'ace we are traveling. We wind up at home because that is my home.
Mr. Hays. When will you be back?
Mr. Hays. In other words, if we wanted you any time after the 1st of January we could get you back?
The Witness. You could get me at home, or here after January 1.
By Mr. O'CONNOR: Q. Can you leave us an itinerary, check points where we can get in touch with you?
A. What I can do is to leave at the office, the best way I can tell you. Where I will be at any one time, any particular time I cannot give you.
Mr. Hays. Mr. Clark, we are trying to accommodate you. You have been served this subpena. We can hold you here. We are through with you, perhaps.
Would you be willing to call in every other day and see if we need you?
The WITNESS. At committee's expense?
Mr. Hays. Reverse the charge. Call my office. I will instruct the girls to accept the charge.
The WITNESS. All right. I can do that. Mr. Hays. I will depend on you to do that. The WITNESS. Yes, sir. Mr. Hays. Call between 8:30 in the morning and 5 in the evening. There is no point in calling in Friday, Saturday, Sunday or Monday because that is a legal holiday.
The WITNESS. Of this week?
Mr. Hays. Yes. Can you do that each morning before you leave for the next stop, just call and ask whether there is a message?
The WITNESS. You are giving me a wonderful vacation that I have to call an investigating committee before I can enjoy my vacation.
By Mr. O'CONNOR: Q. Would you like to stay over the next 2 days so we can ask you?
A. If it is the wish of this committee and it serves the purpose that you so desire I would have to do it. I came here which is the most sacrificing thing that could have happened to me, coming here this morning and coming. I drove here and I have to drive back tonight. I didn't want to do it, but I will do it if you say that is what I have to do. It would be the worst thing to happen.
If you say it must be done I will do it.
Mr. Hays. This is Monday. You don't need to call in the morning. Is it too much to call Wednesday morning or Thursday morning?
The WITNESS. I believe it would be an imposition. If you want me to do it I would do it.
Mr. Hays. I will put it this way—you can do that or stay here and we will dismiss you.
The WITNESS. If you want me to call in I will do it. I believe it would be an imposition for me to each morning remember to call you when I am on vacation.
Mr. Hays. Call in anytime from 8:30 at your convenience. If you don't get up until 10, that is all right, too, Wednesday, Thursday, and the following Tuesday. I don't think-Wednesday and Thursday if we need you we will tell you. That is two times.
The WITNESS. If you feel I should not go I will go to New York, I have to do that, and not go on vacation.
Mr. Hays. We will let you go on condition you call Wednesday and
By Mr. O'CONNOR:
Mr. NEDZI. Why not have the office call? If he calls the office the office can call here.
The WITNESS. Is that all right?
Mr. Hays. Except if he leaves that place they can say they cannot get in touch with him. It takes a few minutes to make a call.
By Mr. O'CONNOR:
A. I would prefer not to go on vacation. Actually, then, I would be on vacation.