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The WITNESS. I don't recall any particular time that I didn't remember anything other than dates. Two years ago is not the best time to ask a person about to remember specific dates.
Mr. JONES. You could not remember the dates, what you went on, who went with you, and you could not remember many things. In other words, you have a poor memory, if I may say so.
The WITNESS. I remember at all times what I went on. Mr. JONES. Do you have a secretary at any time at your disposal? The WITNESS. I do. We have a pool in the office that we use. Mr. JONES. This committee, among other things, will make some recommendations as to how the committee should operate. It appears tonight, it emphasizes it more to me, that with the poor memory so many witnesses have had that if we had somebody in the office who would keep track of where these people are and the days they are working and the days they are not working, we might operate a little more efficiently. Would you agree with that?
The WITNESS. Efficiency I would be for 1 million percent. I would agree with you on anything that would bring that about. Mr. JONES. Wouldn't that help efficiency, in your opinion?
The WITNESS. I would be for anything that would create efficiency. Mr. JONES. I get tired of listening to this evasiveness. You have not given a correct answer tonight. These attorneys have asked you questions. You have evaded every answer.
The WITNESS. I wouldn't agree with you on that. You may say I didn't give the answer maybe that you expected me to give, but, remember, I haven't what you have up there. I don't know what you know. For you to expect me to answer the way you would like me to do, I would be the Congressman and you should be here.
Mr. JONES. That is all.
. By Mr. TAYLER: Q. I will tell you something we know and I will ask you a question about what you know about it. Let's go back to the question Mr. O'Connor asked you about the records indicating that you were a traveler from the District of Columbia to Miami and Miami back to the District of Columbia, on July 30, 1965, and the return trip being made August 9, 1965. The records also do not indicate that you submitted any per diem voucher for such a trip, if you in fact made it.
I ask you, sir, do you have any recollection of making that trip?
A. As I testified to this gentleman, I have no recollection as to that specific trip and date.
Q. If you had in fact made the trip, would you have submitted an expense voucher?
A. If I in fact had made the trip and had had any expense, I would definitely have made an expense voucher.
Q. Would you have claimed per diem for that trip if you had in fact made it?
A. I would have unless there had been a situation where sometimes when I go places, I run into friends and I stay with them and have no expense. If I had any expense, I would have definitely made a per diem voucher.
Q. Wouldn't you say it was unusual to be out of town for 10 days in a place as far away as Miami and not have expenses and not claim per diem?
A. I would think so.
By Mr. O'CONNOR: Q. What you are saying is that you were not on that trip. Is that correct?
A. I didn't say that.
The WITNESS. He asked me if I would have made out a per diem voucher if I had stayed 10 days or 8 days. He said, “Isn't it unusual for someone to stay that long without having per diem?” I said “Yes, sir; it would be unusual.” That was the answer I gave. .
Mr. Hays. Mr. Clark, I have traveled a good bit. In fact I am accused by some people of being quite a traveler. I realize it is difficult to remember every trip that you make as to dates some years ago. If somebody asked whether I went to Pittsburgh by car on such and such a day perhaps I could not tell and I perhaps would not have a record to show.
However, if I traveled in a group of six any time within the last 10 years, or even since I have been in Congress, if somebody asked me did I travel with the following five people I would be able to say yes or no, I did or didn't.
The WITNESS. I think I answered it. Mr. Hays. Let me ask a question, and this is friendly: Did you or did you not travel to Miami with Miss Swann, Mr. Stone, Miss Lewis, Mr. Powell, and Miss Himes?
The WITNESS. Í testified to the fact that I traveled to Miami with Mr. Stone and the other names that he mentioned I could not testify that they were on the flight that I had been on. This is what I testified to. Mr. Hays. In other words you didn't go on a party of six?
The WITNESS. Any time that I went I don't remember traveling at all with those people you mentioned.
Mr. Hays. You would have probably remembered if you had, wouldn't you?
The WITNESS. These are people you mentioned on the travel. I think I would.
Mr. Hays. It would be safe to infer you just didn't go.
Mr. Hays. I don't know whether it will make you feel better but we had testimony you didn't go but your name was used. I don't know why
The WITNESS. Sir, you know what someone else testifies to, everyone has to stand on his own feet. Mr. Hays. I would like you to say you did or didn't go.
The WITNESS. I would like to testify my way and then if I am asked 10 years from now as to next week I don't know how I would testify.
The WiTS. Can you we did excuse what happened an
Mr. NEDZI. You testified you made one trip to Miami in 1966. To the best of your recollection did you make any trips to Miami in 1965?
The WITNESS. To the best of my recollection I don't believe I did. Mr. NEDZI. I have nothing further. Mr. Hays. Other questions? Mr. Clark, would you step out for just a moment, please? (Witness leaves room.) Mr. Hays. Off the record. (Discussion held off the record.) Mr. Hays. Mr. Clark, we would like to excuse you. There is a remote possibility that something might come up we would want to ask about.
Are you going out of the country? Where will you be?
Mr. Hays. Can you give us a telephone number where we can get in touch with you if we did excuse you and needed you?
The WITNESS. Sir, as the resu't of what happened here, I have to drive back to New York tonight, pick up my wife and family and friends and we are driving away on vacation. We are going to Vermont and making a tour.
Mr. Hays. You will not be in any one place?
The WITNESS. No particular p'ace we are traveling. We wind up
The WITNESS. You could get me at home, or here after January 1.
By Mr. O'CONNOR: Q. Can you leave us an itinerary, check points where we can get in touch with you?
A. What I can do is to leave at the office, the best way I can tell you. Where I will be at any one time, any particular time I cannot give you.
Mr. Hays. Mr. Clark, we are trying to accommodate you. You have been served this subpena. We can hold you here. We are through with you, perhaps.
Would you be willing to call in every other day and see if we need you?
The WITNESS. At committee's expense?
Mr. Hays. Reverse the charge. Call my office. I will instruct the girls to accept the charge.
The WITNESS. All right. I can do that. Mr. Hays. I will depend on you to do that. The WITNESS. Yes, sir. Mr. Hays. Call between 8:30 in the morning and 5 in the evening. There is no point in calling in Friday, Saturday, Sunday or Monday because that is a legal holiday.
The WITNESS. Of this week?
Mr. Hays. Yes. Can you do that each morning before you leave for the next stop, just call and ask whether there is a message?
The WITNESS. You are giving me a wonderful vacation that I have to call an investigating committee before I can enjoy my vacation.
By Mr. O'CONNOR: Q. Would you like to stay over the next 2 days so we can ask you?
A. If it is the wish of this committee and it serves the purpose that you so desire I would have to do it. I came here which is the most sacrificing thing that could have happened to me, coming here this morning and coming. I drove here and I have to drive back tonight. I didn't want to do it, but I will do it if you say that is what I have to do. It would be the worst thing to happen.
If you say it must be done I will do it.
Mr. Hays. This is Monday. You don't need to call in the morning. Is it too much to call Wednesday morning or Thursday morning?
The WITNESS. I believe it would be an imposition. If you want me to do it I would do it.
Mr. Hays. I will put it this way—you can do that or stay here and we will dismiss you.
The WITNESS. If you want me to call in I will do it. I believe it would be an imposition for me to each morning remember to call you when I am on vacation.
Mr. Hays. Call in anytime from 8:30 at your convenience. If you don't get up until 10, that is all right, too, Wednesday, Thursday, and the following Tuesday. I don't think-Wednesday and Thursday if we need you we will tell you. That is two times.
The WITNESS. If you feel I should not go I will go to New York, I have to do that, and not go on vacation.
Mr. Hays. We will let you go on condition you call Wednesday and
By Mr. O'CONNOR:
Mr. NEDZI. Why not have the office call? İf he calls the office the office can call here.
The WITNESS. Is that all right?
By Mr. O'CONNOR:
A. I would prefer not to go on vacation. Actually, then, I would be on vacation.
Mr. DICKINSON. Then I object and suggest he stays.
The WITNESS. It is not so much the question of me but I have a wife and family.
By Mr. O'CONNOR:
A. The office will know. I will leave with the office where I will be and they more or less will be able to get in touch with me, if not 8 o'clock, perhaps by 5.
Q. Can't you leave the same information with us?
A. The only difference is that I will be able to call some people whether it was after 5 o'clock, after 10 o'clock, or whatever time.
Mr. DEVINE. This is ridiculous.
The WITNESS. If you order that is what I will do. You are ordering me to call in. I will do it.
Mr. Hays. Witness is dismissed. I will not stay here all night arguing about that.
We will resume at 10 o'clock tomorrow morning.
(Evening session adjourned at 10:15 p.m. Monday, December 19, 1966.)