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The WITNESS. To the best of my knowledge, she did. Mr. Hays. That is what counsel means by running a tight ship. He was complimenting her, in other words.
The WITNESS. Complimenting and not complimenting, I am not taking anything away. I would compliment her, too, as far as that is concerned.
As I said, I am answering the question. I don't know who runs what. I know what I ran.
By Mr. O'CONNOR: Q. I take you to mean that when you traveled you took tickets from Dargans, Derrickson, or Stone.
A. That is right.
By Mr. TAYLER:
Q. I gave you the name as it appears on the payroll. I was not trying to trick you.
A. I know.
Q. Have you seen her within the past 2 years?
A. I don't remember the last time I saw this young lady that you refer to. I don't remember.
By Mr. O'CONNOR:
A. Once in Washington and once in New York. The exact time I don't remember.
By Mr. TAYLER:
A. I don't remember whether it was or not. You are asking for dates when I don't remember things that were of no concern to me.
Q. Did you ever see her in the Congressman's office in the past 2 years?
A. I don't remember whether it was in the Congressman's office, but I have seen her in the last 2 years.
Q. Did you ever see her in New York in the last 2 years?
Q. Have you ever seen Miss Flores at any time during the past 2 years when she was doing work for the Congressman?
A. I have no knowledge of what work anyone is doing, sir.
Q. I didn't ask you about the work anyone is doing. I asked about Miss Flores.
A. I have no knowledge of the work Miss Flores is doing.
Q. Was she working on the occasions you saw her during the past 2 years?
A. When I saw her, she was not working. Mr. TAYLER. That is all. Mr. DICKINSON. For matters of per diem, where are you based? The WITNESS. Washington. Mr. DICKINSON. Do you know all the employees of the committee on which you are special investigator, chief investigator?
The WITNESS. No, sir. Mr. DICKINSON. Do you know approximately how many there are on the committee?
The WITNESS. No, sir.
Mr. DICKINSON. You made a statement that while in New York you stayed where the problem is. Does that mean you roomed in various places in the city, or took rooms in hotels?
The WITNESS. In New York? Mr. DICKENSON. Yes. The WITNESS. Stayed at home. Mr. DICKINSON. Every time you were in New York, even though you were troubleshooting, you stayed at home?
The WITNESS. In New York, yes. Mr. DICKINSON. According to the records we have been able to gather as to your particular travel, you have in the past 2 years, I believe, made some four round trips to Miami. Do you think that would be right?
The WITNESS. I wouldn't know. Mr. DICKINSON. You have no idea? The WITNESS. No. Mr. DICKINSON. Would you say it is wrong? The WITNESS. I wouldn't say that. I wouldn't say it was righi. Mr. DICKINSON. Is four correct, according to the tally of the clerk? (Off the record.) Mr. DickINSON. Just a rough scanning of the record, there are some 25 trips charged to you in your name to New York and back. Would that sound about right to you? Do you think that is right?
The WITNESS. I really wouldn't know. Mr. DICKINSON. You have no opinion on that? The WITNESS. I wouldn't. Mr. DICKINSON. Did you on a Sunday within the past year make a trip from Washington to New York in a group in which Mrs. Upshur was present, Miss Harris, and Miss Dargans? Do you know all three of these people?
ese pot, Missston to you on
The WITNESS. I testified to that before. Mr. DICKINSON. I am asking again. The WITNESS. I don't remember making such a trip as that. Mr. DICKINSON. You know the people involved whose names I mentioned?
The WITNESS. Yes. You mentioned Mrs. Dargans, I know. Miss Upshur I know. Mr. DICKINSON. Harris? The WITNESS. I don't. Mr. DICKINSON. Aurora Harris? The WITNESS. I know her. Mr. DICKINSON. There was some testimony that a group, according to the tickets, left Washington for New York on the committee credit card. You were listed among them as to the tickets that were bought. There was your name, Aurora Harris, Lillian Upshur, and Louise Dargans. Were you in such a group?
The WITNESS. You mentioned Dargans. As I said before, I don't remember ever making any trip with Miss Dargans. Mr. DICKINSON. Or the others? The WITNESS. The others, I have been in their company. Mr. DICKINSON. As a group?
The WITNESS. The moment you mention Mrs. Dargans, I say to you I know of no trip with her.
Mr. DICKINSON. You say you might have made a trip with Miss Huff one time, possibly twice?
The WITNESS. I may have been on a plane with her. Mr. DICKINSON. Is it possible you could have been on a plane traveling simultaneously with her to the same destination on committee business three, four, or five times in the past year or two?
The WITNESS. I could not testify to that. Committee business? I couldn't testify to that. Mr. DICKINSON. Would it be unlikelyThe WITNESS. You mean to New York? Mr. DICKINSON. Usually it is New York, but wherever you were going on committee business on the same plane at the same time, would you say it would be unlikely? You know Miss Huff?
The WITNESS. Yes. Mr. DICKINSON. Would you say it would be unlikely for you to be traveling from the same place to the same place on the same plane on committee work and not know of it?
The WITNESS. I don't get the question as you put it. Mr. DICKINSON. You are listed as making at least four trips simultaneously on a plane with Miss Huff. We assume this is committee business. I was wondering if you remembered this. You were vague before. You said maybe once or twice, but you do not think you did it any number of times.
The WITNESS. I wasn't vague. I was testifying with respect to my memory.
Mr. DICKINSON. I do not mean purposely vague.
The WITNESS. My testimony would be the same. I could not recall to you how many times I was on a plane with Miss Huff.
Mr. DICKINSON. You were asked about Miss Flores. You saw her approximately a year ago, as best you could recall. Do you recall in which city that was?
The WITNESS. I testified I think I remember seeing her in New York and I saw her in Washington. Mr. DICKINSON. Within the past year? The WITNESS. The gentleman asked me within the past 2 years. Mr. DICKINSON. I am asking you now.
The WITNESS. I don't remember whether one was a year prior to that or not. I would say approximately, to the best of my recollection, it was in the last 2 years that I believe I have seen her two times.
Mr. DICKINSON. In either of these times was she in the office of the Congressman or the committee?
The WITNESS. The testimony is the same, that I didn't remember. Mr. DICKINSON. Answer my question, please.
The WITNESS. I wanted to be sure we understand the same question. The testimony is the same. Mr. DICKINSON. Answer my question, please.
The WITNESS. I did not remember seeing her there. When I saw her was not at work. This is my testimony.
Mr. DICKINSON. Is it possible that you could work someplace other than in a Member's office?
The WITNESS. What? Mr. DICKINSON. Is it possible you can work someplace other than in a Member's office?
The WITNESS. Is it possible?
Mr. DICKINSON. Is it possible you could physically work for a Member other than just inside his office? This is true, is it not?
The WITNESS. Of course. Mr. DICKINSON. That is the reason I asked the question as I did. That is the reason the answer to me is evasive.
I asked you was she working. First, was she in the Member's office and was she working? Was she doing any work for the committee that you know of?
The WITNESS. My testimony was that I saw her. The gentleman asked the number of times I had seen Mrs. Flores in the last 2 years. I told him that I thought it was approximately twice in the last 2 years.
He asked me if I saw her working in the Congressman's office. My answer was that I did not. Is this the same question?
Mr. DICKINSON. No. I really do not care what he asked.
Mr. Hays. He testified he saw her once in the church. Do you want to ask him where he saw her the other time?
Mr. DICKINSON. Yes, if you recall.
The WITNESS. I saw her in Washington. I don't remember exactly where it was.
Mr. Hays. He saw her in church. She probably was not working then.
Mr. DICKINSON. I have nothing further.
By Mr. O'CONNOR: Q. If you took a trip to Miami in company with six members of the Congressman's staff, you would recall that trip, would you not?
A. If we were assigned to go together, I would.
Q. Do you recall ever taking a trip with six members of the Congressman's staff?
A. I can't recall at this time.
Q. On July 30 of 1965 until August 9, 1965, which is a period of 10 days or 11 days, were you with a party of six in Miami?
A. I testified to the fact I did go to Miami. I don't remember the date you mentioned.
Q. A large group of you went to Miami?
A. To the best of my recollection, the time I went to Miami it was Mr. Stone, I believe, and I believe Miss Swann.
Q. That is three. Who would be the other three?
Q. On July 30, 1965, the travel records indicate that you, Miss Swann, Mr. Stone, Miss Lewis that you have not named, Miss Himes that you have not named, and Mr. Powell all went down on the same plane together. Is that the trip you refer to?
A. I don't know about the trip you refer to. The names you mentioned, other names, are not familiar to me as going on that flight.
Q. You would say that you have never traveled in a party composed of those names?
A. Of this flight you refer to, I know those people, but these names are not familiar to me as having traveled on the plane to Miami.
Q. With you. A. That is right. Mr. DEVINE. As the chief investigator of this committee, did you have an air travel card issued to you?
The WITNESS. No, sir; I never wanted one. Mr. DEVINE. You used Miss Dargans', the chairman's, or someone else's?
The WITNESS. Never the chairman's. I used the Education and Labor Committee card signed by Derrickson, or Stone's, or I got a ticket from the chief clerk.
Mr. JONES. You have indicated that you were a troubleshooter and investigator and you get over the country. Do you make a report to anybody when you return from those trips?
The WITNESS. I make out a report in many instances, and in many instances there are followups, a matter of seeing people. These are times, also, when it was a matter of conference and reporting what I had done.
Mr. JONES. Would these reports help you remember where you were on different dates if you had the reports with you?
The WITNESS. I know more or less where I was. Mr. JONES. Tonight you have not been able to remember anything, though. I wondered if you had a secretary who was making notes of where you were.