Q. Wait a minute, sir. It is making it difficult on the reporterwho, if anyone, accompanied you that trip?

A. I believe at one, maybe a second time, it is vague to me, Mr. may have gone with me.

Stone

By Mr. O'CONNOR:

Q. Mr. Stone did not come to work for the committee until March of 1965, so he could not have gone out there.

A. Mr. Stone was with the committee I think maybe 2 or 3 months, and then left and came back again.

Q. Mr. Stone's testimony was that he was with the committee in

(Authorized by House Resolution 139, approved February 24, 1965 89th Congress; 1st Session)

I CERTIFY that the above bill is correct and just, and that payment therefor has not been received. *SIGN ORIGINAL ONLY

Unit price

AMOUNT

Dellars Cts.

$16

16 00

3 50

11 20

in the quality and quantity above specified, or the services performed as stated, and that they are in accordance with the orders therefor; that the prices charged are just, reasonable, and in accordance with agreement.

19 on the Treasurer of the

Where a voucher is certified by a corporation or company, the name of the person writing the corporate or company name, as well as the capacity in which he signs, must appear. Example: "Chicago Edison Company, per John Smith," Secretary or Treasurer, or member of firm, as the case may be.

November and December of 1964, and then didn't come back until March of 1965. This is February of 1965.

A. Then if I went, it is possible. I do remember a time Mr. Stone went with me. Whether it was the date you are questioning me about now, gentlemen, I am not too clear.

Q. I notice you use the language "if you went." doubt in your mind that you went?

A. I didn't mean to say "if I went."

Q. That was the language you used.

A. I didn't mean that. On these things, I went.
Q. You are positive?

A. On this I went.

Is there some

Mr. TAYLER. May that be marked "Clark's Exhibit 4." (The above-referred to document was marked "Clark Exhibit 4.")

By Mr. TAYLER:

Q. I will hand you an Eastern Airlines transportation receipt. showing purchase of an airline ticket on Miss Dargans' credit card on January 28, 1965; January 28, 1965. This shows the issuance of a ticket for the use of Odell Clark from District of Columbia to New York to Chicago and from Chicago to District of Columbia. I ask you if that transportation receipt, to the best of your knowledge, reflects the issuance of the ticket you used on the Chicago trip on February 1.

A. This is February 1.

This ticket is February 28. It is possible, sir. I really don't know. I didn't issue the ticket.

By Mr. O'CONNOR:

Q. Did you go to New York before you went to Chicago? That is what we want to know.

By Mr. TAYLER:

That is the question.

A. I don't remember. I believe on one occasion I did go to New York and to Chicago because the people involved in the Chicago issue, some of the local union people who were involved in the Chicago issue, were in New York.

Whether this is the specific date or not, I don't know.

On one occasion I do believe I did go to New York to meet with some local people connected with Local 4 and to Chicago. On another occasion I may have gone from here directly.

Q. If you traveled from the District of Columbia to New York and then to Chicago, would you not have listed your travel to New York on your per diem voucher?

A. Not necessarily. In most of the cases, a great portion of the cases, any time I went to New York I made no per diem because I had no expenses in New York.

Q. The claim you made on this voucher, which is Clark No. 4, is for official travel performed for the Committee on Education and Labor from Washington, D.C., to Chicago, Ill., and return, to conduct an investigation of trade unions in Chicago, on February 1.

If you had gone via New York, wouldn't you have put New York in there?

A. Not necessarily.

Q. If you had gone via New York, wouldn't you perhaps have listed some expenses for taxis or airport limousines?

A. Not necessarily. In most cases when I go to New York people meet me. New York is my home, and I know most people. I would not necessarily have expense in New York. There is one of the biggest locals of this union that I was involved with in Chicago which is in New York.

By Mr. O'CONNOR:

Q. Where is the national headquarters of the union?

A. In Washington, I believe. The local we were involved with was in Chicago.

Q. The local in New York wouldn't necessarily have affiliation with the Chicago local, would it?

A. Yes, sir. They are all in the international.

Q. I know they belong to the international, but that is located in Washington.

A. Yes, sir. All of these people who are heads of locals are board members of the international, and in an investigation you talk to everybody who had something to do with the problem.

Q. They have locals in other cities, too.

A. That is correct. Those which have a bearing on the information I was interested in were in New York and Chicago, and not even too much in Washington.

By Mr. TAYLER:

Q. Mr. Clark, the transportation receipt that you have just examined, issued on January 28, 1965, showing issuance of a ticket to you from the District of Columbia, New York, Chicago, the District of Columbia, we have been unable to turn up in the audit any ticket that was used or any ticket that was turned in for refund that was issued against this transportation receipt.

A. I don't get that.

Q. Do you have any explanation of why that particular ticket was issued in your name and was never used or refunded?

A. I don't get that. This ticket issued never was used?

Q. That ticket against that transportation receipt on January 28, 1965, which bears your name as the traveler, has not been used or refunded, according to the airline records. Can you account for that in any way?

A. Now you really confuse me. used?

Q. That is right.

You mean the ticket was never

A. I don't know anything about that.

Q. You still have any tickets left over from 1965?

A. I have not. This I really wouldn't know anything about.

Q. You cannot relate that ticket specifically and positively to your Chicago trip on February

A. I cannot.

Q. No further questions.

Mr. HAYS. Is it possible that you might have at some time, or perhaps more than one time, been issued a ticket which you did not use, like requesting a ticket or the chairman asked you to go to X city, something turned up, and you did not go?

The WITNESS. There were times when I didn't use it, I returned them.

Mr. HAYS. That was the next question. You returned them for refund. To whom did you return them?

The WITNESS. I didn't return them for refund, but just returned them back.

Mr. HAYS. To whom?

The WITNESS. From where I got them. Most of the time I used the card. For example, I know in one instance I was given a ticket to California, I believe, sometime this past summer, and 2 days after there was an airline strike. The airline struck, I don't remember how long it was, a month or 6 weeks, but whatever it was there was the emergency, the necessity was still in Los Angeles, but the emergency was no longer important so I turned the ticket back. I turned it in to the chief clerk.

Mr. O'CONNOR. Miss Dargans?

The WITNESS. Yes.

Mr. HAYS. What I am getting at is this: There is always the possibility that tickets are turned in and pushed in a desk drawer and just not returned to the airline.

The WITNESS. To my knowledge

Mr. HAYS. Whenever you did not use it, you turned it back to the office?

The WITNESs. That is right.

Mr. TAYLER. Could that transportation receipt be marked "Clark Exhibit No. 5"?

(The above-referred-to document was marked "Clark Exhibit 5.) Mr. TAYLER. At this time, Mr. Chairman, I offer Clark exhibits 1 through 5 for introduction into the record at the appropriate place. Mr. HAYS. Without objection, they will be introduced at the appropriate place.

(Clark exhibits 1 through 5 were received in evidence.) Mr. HAYS. Any other questions?

By Mr. O'CONNER:

Q. The examination of the airline travel indicates numerous trips in which tickets bearing your name, travel was performed with Miss Swann, Miss Huff, Miss Harris, Miss Lewis. Do you have any

information of tickets being issued in your name for travel which you individually did not perform?

A. No, sir. You are telling me about it for the first time.

Q. In all of your 5 years with the committee, you have not known of a practice such as that?

A. No, sir.

Q. Have you ever obtained tickets for the chairman or for anyone else?

A. No, sir.

Q. In the names of somebody else on the committee?

A. No, sir.

Q. Have you ever been told by either Mr. Stone, Miss Dargans, or any other staff member that they were using your name?

A. No, sir.

Q. On travel tickets?

A. No, sir, they wouldn't dare.

Q. If such had been brought to your attention, would you have objected to it?

A. That is why I said they wouldn't dare. I certainly would have. Q. Apparently your name appearing on some of these airline tickets has taken you by surprise. Is that correct?

A. To say the least.

Q. This is the first time you have been aware that this practice has been going on?

A. You say practice. It is the first time I am aware, if it is true, taking your word for it, that my names are on tickets that I have not used them. This is the first time I have heard of it.

By Mr. TAYLER:

Q. You saw some tickets here tonight that have your name on them and you did not use them.

A. That is correct.

Mr. HAYS. I think it is fair to point out to you they did dare, and we have had testimony that your name was put on tickets which were not for you.

That is for your information. They might not have dared let you know about it, but they did dare to do it.

By Mr. O'CONNOR:

Q. Where is your officer here in the committee?

A. 2181.

Q. Who else is in that office with you?

A. Derrickson, Dargans, Matthews, Thompson.

Q. Miss Dargans runs a pretty tight control on the issuance of airline tickets, does she not?

A. I really don't know, sir. I don't know what anyone's function is or has been. We have our responsibilities, and I wouldn't necessarily know that Miss Dargans did and she would not necessarily know what I did.

If I requested a ticket, I got it on all occasions. There never was an occasion or question about what she did.

Mr. HAYS. Did you get tickets through Miss Dargans at times? The WITNESS. Yes.

Mr. HAYS. Did she make you sign for them when you got them?