guishers, the draperies. We have to furnish a number of kinds of movable equipment which are not in the architectural contract. Senator HOLLINGS. And that is about $10 million? Mr. POOLE. We estimate an additional $10 to $11 million, beyond the $6 million for shelving. Senator HOLLINGS. What do you project your request to be for equipment next year? Mr. POOLE. Next year it will be between $10 and $11 million. If the building maintains its present schedule we will have to have the rest of that money if we move in when the building is ready for occupancy. Senator COTTON. Do I understand then that the shelving you are providing for in your request this year be ultimately moved into the Madison Building when it is completed and that will all be new and more particularly adapted? Mr. POOLE. The money that we are now requesting will be for new shelving for the Madison Building. We hope to award contracts approximately in February of 1974. Senator HOLLINGS. All of this that you are requesting this year is for the Madison Building? Mr. POOLE. Yes, sir. I may say that we have, over the past several years, purchased about $200,000 worth of what we call conventional shelving which is now in some of the outlying areas mentioned by Mr. Croxton. We have some on Pickett Street and elsewhere. This shelving will be moved to the Madison Building. CONGRESSIONAL RESEARCH SERVICE Senator HOLLINGS. Thank you very much, sir. Dr. Mumford, I have some questions of the Congressional Research Service. I will ask Dr. Lester S. Jayson to come forward. Dr. Jayson, before we ask our questions, we can include your statement in its entirety and you can deliver it or summarize, as you wish. Mr. JAYSON. Let me read a briefer version, Mr. Chairman. The Congressional Research Service is requesting $11,111,000 for fiscal year 1974, $1,956,000 above our current budget. Most of the increase, $1,555,000, is for 104 new positions to carry out the third stage of a 5-year buildup program to meet our new and expanded responsibilities under the Legislative Reorganization Act of 1970. The House deleted 25 of these new positions, decreasing the amount requested by $421,000. To enable us to implement our responsibilities fully under the Reorganization Act within the time frame that Congress mandated us, we are requesting that these positions be restored. Mr. Chairman, you are familiar with the traditional role of CRS. CRS is a research and information arm of the Congress. We maintain a multidisciplinary staff comprised of lawyers, economists, specialists in education, social welfare, taxation and dozens of other subjects of continuing concern to the Congress. Members can turn to us for a whole catalog of services for legal opinions, analytical studies, legislative histories, translations, newspaper searches, and numerous other services. LEGISLATIVE REORGANIZATION ACT The Legislative Reorganization Act of 1970 added new dimensions to our job. We were told to continue providing our traditional services but the act also called upon us to provide what the draftsmen termed "massive aid and policy analysis" to the committees of Congress. The primary objective of our expanded responsibilities was for CRS to provide extensive in-depth assistance to the committees of Congress. The report accompanying this legislation directed us to undertake a 5-year program to build up our resources to meet these new and expanded responsibilities. This year, with the beginning of the new Congress, we faced the full impact of some of the new directives placed upon us by the act, although we were only in the second year of our gearing up program. For example, the act directs us to provide to each committee at the beginning of each Congress a list of subjects and policy areas that the committee might profitably analyze in depth. We undertook and completed this task for the first time in connection with this 93d Congress. It was for us a massive undertaking involving the efforts of some 150 of our people with a wide variety of subject expertise, organized into some 37 teams corresponding to the jurisdictions of the various committees. PROGRAM EXPIRATION: INFORMATION TO COMMITTEE Second, the act directs us to submit to every committee at the beginning of each Congress a list of expiring programs and activities under the jurisdiction of that committee. The purpose is to assist the committee in exploring the advisability of extending, modifying or terminating these programs well in advance of the legislative deadline. We examined the statutes at large for the last 10 years page by page and identified some 450 programs due to expire during the 93d Congress, and then we identified and informed each appropriate committee of the terminating programs under its jurisdiction. Senator COTTON. Your task must be complicated because in many cases you have to furnish this information to three or four committees, don't you? The jurisdiction of the committees of the Congress is becoming more and more overlapping and more and more confused. What is your policy? I find that in my Committee on Commerce we are mixed up with Interior, mixed up with Judiciary. We have all kinds of areas that are overlapping. What do you do in that case? Mr. JAYSON. In connection with the terminating programs our first point was to see which committee had handled the original program and activity as authorized. Senator COTTON. And you just furnish it to that committee? Mr. JAYSON. Yes. Where we could not identify that, then we sought the committees that had the jurisdictions, which, in our judgment, were interested. But there were 450 of those programs. Senator COTTON. It is not your fault but it is our fault, in the Congress. Pretty soon you will have to furnish all of this information to all of the committees. Mr. JAYSON. We actually did that to the two Appropriations Committees, on the House and Senate side. We gave a complete list to each, after discussion with their staff, of the programs that we had identified as expiring. As you know, Senator, there is a select committee on the House side to study the jurisdiction of committees. ENERGY POLICY OF THE U.S. Senator HOLLINGS. Dr. Jayson, a good example in point and one that will be raised is on energy. I could ask you what is the energy policy of the United States and I can give you time to come up with an answer. You couldn't find one. We, in our endeavors to determine one, are now centering on perhaps an idea of the institution of a National Energy Policy Council within the White House. Along that line there is a diversity of thought. Some Members think that perhaps we ought to have in the General Accounting Office all the statistics and information, to keep material relative to energy. It has been suggested within the Congressional Research Service, that since you are asked you have a good bit over there. I am sure both Senator Cotton and I want to get into this computer thing, too. You have $2 billion worth of computerization in the executive branch and there is no need, really, to duplicate it if the accessibility in large measure is made to the Members of the Congress. On energy, itself, on a research subject of that kind, what would be your suggestion as to having one point in Government where you could go and find it? It concerns the people generally. Should it be in the Congressional Research Service, in GAO, or in a National Energy Policy Council? I am not talking about physically, all in one room. You would have to fill another archives to take care of one subject. I am talking about some kind of correlation and coordination. From your expertise, what is your suggestion? Mr. JAYSON. It is my understanding that there are some 17 different committees that deal with different aspects of energy. We produced last year at the request of one of the committees a very thick committee print dealing with all legislative matters that were before the Congress dealing with energy. CONGRESSIONAL SEMINARS ON ENERGY We have been holding briefings for Members of Congress and staff on energy, to which we call in some of the country's top experts. I have listened to some of these briefings. The matter, of course, is extremely complicated. I would say that CRS, which has a number of specialists in various aspects of the energy crisis, all of them doing a great deal of work for the Congress in these fields, could potentially be a central information point. USE OF CURRENT DATA BASES ON ENERGY RESOURCES We could certainly expand the things we are now doing regarding energy resources. I think where executive departments and large installations have a great deal of information, we ought to be able to have a connection or tie-in with them, whether by computer or otherwise so that we would have a central point for data of this kind. My point is that CRS could handle it. I could make a study of this and come up with a proposal for you. Senator HOLLINGS. I wish you would. It will be a current topic this spring and we will probably be debating a bill here in a couple of weeks on this measure. I am trying to get the confines of cost, of what I am talking about, what would be a realistic type of program for the correlation, somewhere where we could go and find the answers. EXCHANGE OF INFORMATION Along that line from the private sector what cooperation does CRS have with private oil companies, natural gas companies, learning the statistical information necessary to give your reports? The claim is made that the natural gas industry is not competitively structured. How do we know whether it is or not? I don't know. If I ask you and you write me a report, what would you say? Is it or isn't it? Mr. JAYSON. I don't know what my energy experts would put into the report, Mr. Chairman, at this moment. I do know that occasionally we have made inquiries to the outside sources where they have statistics. I believe they have given them to us cooperatively. But after listening to some of the experts, including the private sector, I am not sure that anybody knows the full answer. Many, of course, have different proposals with regard to their particular aspect of the so-called energy crisis; to develop more coal, for example. We are told that we have enough coal to last us 400 years, taking care of our energy problems, providing certain research and development were undertaken to convert the coal to a more usable product; to clean it, so to speak. We are told that there is enough oil in the United States to carry us for a good many years, but we may not want to rely entirely on our own oil resources. We are told that there is oil in Alaska that could be brought in. We are told that if we rely on the oil in the Near East, it may affect our balance of payments. You are familiar with the various aspects of these problems. But I haven't heard of any comprehensive answer. Senator COTTON. May I interrupt for a moment? Do you furnish this information to these quasi-judicial so-called arms of the Congress? For instance, I pick up every few days a speech by a member of the Federal Power Commission in which he goes into great detail on his viewpoint of what our oil resources are, our gas resources, our energy resources. Do you furnish that information to them? Mr. JAYSON. No, sir. Senator COTTON. How do they get it? Mr. JAYSON. CRS acts only in response to requests from Members of Congress and the committees of Congress. Senator COTTON. Do they have a complete research staff? I am amazed sometimes at some of the speeches. Mr. JAYSON. I assume that they have some research staff of their own. They do have access to information from trade associations. They do have access at the threshold to statistics available to the oil companies, which we do not have, unless they are published somewhere. But we do not service them in connection with their speeches. SOURCES OF INFORMATION Senator COTTON. I am not suggesting that a member of the Federal Power Commission gets hold of you and asks you to get the information to prepare him a speech on such-and-such subject that he wants to deliver to such-and-such organization in Charlotte, N.C., or somewhere else. I am wondering if there isn't some waste if you are furnishing to the committees of Congress a background of data, factual information-I am not talking about controversial arguments data, and if the ICC, the Federal Power Commission, and the various other quasi-judicial commissions created by the Congress have research in the same thing, why there can't be pooling of information. It would be very expensive if they were furnished with the same sort of thing that you furnished to the committees of Congress on energy, to take one example. They never asked you, probably. Furthermore, could you give it to them if they asked you? Mr. JAYSON. No, sir. We could not do research for them. Mr. JAYSON. No, sir; because we deal only with the Congress. Senator COTTON. We would have to give it to you, and we would have to give it to them, and then we would go to jail for mixing up in controversial litigation. Mr. JAYSON. Let me also put the thing in a broader perspective. My understanding is that with many of these problems in regard to energy, there is great dispute amongst the experts as to what you described a moment ago as facts. Senator COTTON. You can say that again. Mr. JAYSON. CRS, of course, does not have people out in the field. We are relying primarily on our own analysis of the materials which have been published and which are available to the researchers. But I agree it would be wasteful if there were various organizations doing the same thing. They should pool their resources. Senator COTTON. Thank you. USE OF COMPUTERS Senator HOLLINGS. Now, on the question of duplication. On computerization, are you asking for any additional computerization? Mr. JAYSON. Not within the CRS budget as it now stands, sir. There have been discussions with Senator Cannon, chairman of the Rules Committee, and his staff with CRS concerning CRS input into a broad computer program which they are proposing for the Senate, itself. Senator HOLLINGS. At what stage is that? Do you know? Are you requesting further moneys to carry that out? Mr. JAYSON. They have discussed with us specific information that they will want CRS to bring into the system. I will discuss that, if you wish. We are awaiting a formal request from Chairman Cannon, asking us, as he indicated informally he would, to seek resources |