(Witnesses: Zappone, Burch, Moore.)

Mr. ZAPPONE. Yes, sir. The CHAIRMAN. Then they would seem to be practically on a par with these?

Mr. ZAPPONE. Yes, sir; that is, good ones-just about the same. Mr. SAMUEL. What is the difference in the services of the two? One gets $1,200 and the other $1,400.

Mr. ZAPPONE. Mrs. Guthridge, the one first named in the report, at $1.400, is in charge of the office. There is a large switchboard in that office connected with 50 or 60 telephones, and you know how the buildings of the Department of Agriculture are located. They are spread all over that reservation. Then there is an indoor system of 160 phones also connected with this switchboard, which adds a great many calls. Mrs. Guthridge is constantly changing from switchboard to telegraph key all day long. The business has grown so that she can no longer do all the telephoning and the telegraphing, and it was necessary for Congress to provide an additional operator, at $1.200. They alternate now. They are both competent to fill either position. The service would be very unsatisfactory if some one called on the telephone while she was at the telegraph key, and vice versa. The operators work together. During the meat-inspection and purefood inquiries I think there were as many as three or four on duty, were there not, Colonel Burch?

Mr. BURCH. Yes: an extra one, too.

Professor MOORE. Mr. Chairman, I have trouble in getting similar employees to work at the Weather Bureau at $1,200. I have gotten two or three through the Civil Service Commission at $1,000, and they left unless we could put their salaries up to $1,200 at least. I mean competent telegraph operators.

Mr. FLOOD. Why do you require them to perform the duties of both telegraph and telephone operators?

Professor MOORE. These people you are speaking of are telegraph operators and telephone operators, but their talent is mainly that of a telegraph operator.

Mr. ZAPPONE. Which makes them the more valuable, of course.

Professor MOORE. Yes; they do both duties. They attend to the switchboard of the telephone system while doing the work of a telegraph operator.

Mr. ZAPPONE. It is in the interest of economy.

Mr. FLOOD. Do you think it is a matter of economy to take a highpriced person and make him do low-priced work or lower-priced

work?

Professor MOORE. Yes; I think that where the two duties come together like that it is so. You would have to have an operator there anyway, and there are intervals of time between the sending of messages in which they are able to handle the switchboard. At the Weather Bureau we do have a boy to attend to the switchboard, which is separated from the telegraph division, because our telegraphing is of such a large volume that we keep the telegraph operators busy all the time. We have a number of them there, but I have difficulty in getting competent operators at $1,000. I have tried it, and they have invariably left us.

Mr. FLOOD. But how is it about telephone operators?

Mr. SAMUEL. But if those two alternate and do the same work, why do they not get the same salary?

(Witnesses: Moore, Burch, Zappone.)

Professor MOORE. One of them, the older employee, is in charge of the office.

Mr. BURCH. And of course we did not want to pay the other one $1,400, so we got one at as low a salary as we could.

Professor MOORE. I might further answer that, if you will permit me, by saying that the time of these telegraph operators is not fully occupied in operating the instruments, and they have time to attend to the switchboard. It is absolutely necessary to have two there, because one can not be there all the time, and at times the work is such as to keep two on duty continuously. Their intervals are filled in by taking care of the switchboard.

The CHAIRMAN. I suppose the real fact about it is that two really furnish a surplus of energy for that purpose? That is, I do not suppose you continuously use two people there?

Mr. BURCH. Yes; constantly.

Mr. ZAPPONE. Mr. Chairman, at the present time there are actually three on duty. The business increased so on account of the meatinspection and pure-food work that it became necessary to detail another clerk to that office; there really should be another place there.

The CHAIRMAN. I did not know but what there might be periods when you absolutely needed two, and could not get along without two, and then there might be a slack time when even one might not be employed.

Mr. BURCH. There is no time when they are not mostly employed. Mr. ZAPPONE. If it is agreeable, Mr. Chairman, I would like to add that the telephone company reports by postal card every day the number of messages sent through their general exchange, and it is the duty of our telephone and telegraph operator in charge to check that up with the list she keeps of the messages sent, and on that later she verifies the account that is received from the telephone company. I send the account to her for that purpose, and she checks up every message that has been charged up against the Department and returns the account O. K.'ed for payment. It is the same way if any private messages are sent by employees of the Department. The operator keeps a separate record of these, which are paid for by the employees at the rate of 2 cents a message, under an agreement with the telephone company.

The CHAIRMAN. How many telephone messages would it average a day, if you remember?

Mr. ZAPPONE. It will average 500 calls per day on the outside exchange system and 1,500 calls per day on the interior system.

Mr. FLOOD. What portion of their time is taken up with the telegraph instrument, and what portion with the telephone exchange? Mr. ZAPPONE. I must refer you to Colonel Burch on that point, sir. Mr. BURCH. There is one occupied nearly all the time at the telegraph.

Mr. FLOOD. And the other at the telephone?

Mr. BURCH. Yes; and frequently both of them are using the telegraph. They have received several hundred messages a day and sent as many recently; so that they are occupied constantly.

Mr. FLOOD. That was not the question I asked, sir. What proportion of their time is taken up with telegraph work and what part with the telephone work?

(Witnesses: Burch, Zappone.)

Mr. BURCH. I should say just about half and half.

Mr. FLOOD. But one could do the work of the telegraphing and the other of telephoning?

Mr. BURCH. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. There is one general question I want to ask in relation to the office of the Secretary. Are there any persons on the roll receiving compensation for services rendered in the office of the Secretary, that are engaged in any other business, or receiving compensation for any other services rendered elsewhere?

Mr. BURCH. Not one, to my knowledge.

The CHAIRMAN. And there are none of them, I suppose, on the rolls here that are on the rolls of any other Department or any other Bureau, so far as you know?

Mr. ZAPPONE. That is prohibited by law, Mr. Chairman. It reads as follows:

That no part of the money herein or hereinafter appropriated for the Department of Agriculture shall be paid to any person as additional salary or compensation, receiving at the same time other compensation as an officer or employee of the Government; and in addition to the proper vouchers and accounts for the sums appropriated for the said Department to the accounting officers of the Treasury, the Commissioner of Agriculture shall at the commencement of each regular session present to Congress a detailed statement of the expenditure of all appropriations for said Department for the past preceding fiscal year. (23 Stat. L., 356.)

The CHAIRMAN. I know it is; but I happen to know that in some instances the law does not "catch on."

Mr. ZAPPONE. It does in our Department.

The CHAIRMAN. We can not always stop with what is prohibited by law, as I have discovered in connection with a lot of people, because they do not stop there; they keep right on traveling just as if there was not any law. Of course I simply make that general inquiry in relation to these people here.

Mr. SAMUEL. I was going to ask whether, if you had one of these persons employed as telegraph operator and another as operator for the telephone, it would make any difference as far as the salary was concerned?

Mr. BURCH. Well, we could, of course, get along with somebody to operate the telephones for less money; but they would not be able to handle the telegraph.

Mr. SAMUEL. Why do you get a telegraph operator to handle the telephone if you have somebody to handle the telephone?

Mr. BURCH. We need two telegraph operators to relieve each other. We need the two constantly. One could not go out of the office for a minute if there was but one there.

The CHAIRMAN. What are your hours?

Mr. BURCH. Our hours are from 9 to 4.30.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you understand it to be a fact that it is not practicable, then, for one operator to do the continuous work between 9 and 4.30?

Mr. BURCH. Yes; it might be, certainly; but then they would not be able to leave the office at all for any minute. A telegraph office is a little different from almost anything else. There must be somebody there at the key, or within hearing of the key, at all times.

(Witness: Burch.)

The CHAIRMAN. Yes. We can understand that it might be necessary, of course, for an operator to be away from the instrument for a few minutes at a time.

Mr. BURCH. For instance, they are given half an hour at noon for lunch, and they never leave the office. That office is continuously running through the lunch hour and at all times.

The CHAIRMAN. But if it were not for the lunch hour, would it not be practicable for one telegrapher to take care of the telegraphic work? This is Mr. Samuel's idea, as I understand it.

Mr. SAMUEL. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN (continuing). Would it not be practicable for one telegrapher to take care of the telegraphic work, except that he might be called out, of course, for a moment or two once or twice during the day?

Mr. BURCH. One person could take all the telegrams and send all the telegrams, undoubtedly, and be constantly at the key. There is no question about that.

The CHAIRMAN. Then why could not a less expensive clerk take care of the telephone?

Mr. BURCH. It is economy, I think, to have it as it is now, because if one of the operators went on leave, for instance, or was sick for a day, where would we get an operator to take her place? They are frequently sick and frequently take their leave during the year, and we would then have to go outside and employ somebody to take their places.

The CHAIRMAN. Oh, that is true.

Mr. SAMUEL. But do not the other Departments have that trouble? Mr. BURCH. Oh, they have several telegraph operators; they have two or three or more telegraph operators.

The CHAIRMAN. I do not suppose there would be much practical difficulty in getting one shifted over from one of the others, would there?

Mr. BURCH. That might be done; but I think you will find our department with less telegraph operators and less telephone operators than they have in any other Department.

The CHAIRMAN. I hope so.

Mr. BURCH. I think you will, by comparison.

The CHAIRMAN. I have a notion that there is at least the maximum number necessary; in some instances there is more or less of a surplus in connection with some of the Departments.

Mr. BURCH. I do not think we have any surplus, Mr. Chairman. If you could see them at work during the day, you would find that they were kept busy; and we frequently have to send out a third person to help them with the telephone.

Mr. FLOOD. Do you have any trouble getting that third person?

Mr. BURCH. We have several messenger boys, and we put a messenger boy in to handle the telephone. We have them taught the transfer of the keys on the telephone board. They merely operate the switchboard.

Mr. FLOOD. Of course they do not operate the telegraph instrument?

Mr. BURCH. No, indeed; just the telephone. We have taught two or three of the messengers to help with it.

(Witnesses: Zappone, Burch, Moore.)

Mr. ZAPPONE. A few years ago, Mr. Chairman, Mrs. Guthridge attended to both the telephone and the telegraph. She filled that position for a number of years. That was before the Department extended its work. Now it is beyond the capabilities of two people. At times, when the telegraph business is very heavy, they have to get an extra telegraph operator in there to relieve the pressure.

The CHAIRMAN. How many instruments do you have in there—

one or two?

Mr. ZAPPONE. I think there are two, are there not, Colonel Burch? Mr. BURCH. I think there are three. I know of two instruments, and I think there is a third one.

Mr. ZAPPONE. Oh, yes; there are facilities for three operators. The CHAIRMAN. There are times, then, when both of the telegraphic instruments are in operation?

Mr. ZAPPONE. Yes, sir; often. Then, at other times, one of the telegraph operators will go on leave, and, of course, it is absolutely necessary to have some one else during that absence.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes; that is true.

Mr. ZAPPONE. And even when both regular operators are on duty the pressure of work sometimes compels us to get another operator. Mr. FLOOD. Another telegraph operator?

Mr. ZAPPONE. Yes.

Mr. FLOOD. Do you have any trouble getting this third one?

Mr. ZAPPONE. I think not long ago the pressure became so great that the Secretary's office had to telephone Professor Moore to send a man down from the Weather Bureau for a few days.

Professor MOORE. I sent down one of our operators to help them

out.

Mr. FLOOD. But there was no trouble getting him?

Professor MOORE. Oh, no. We have a number of them in the Weather Bureau. The Weather Bureau has so much telegraphing. Mr. ZAPPONE. They had to double up in their work at the Weather Bureau, however, in order to spare this man for a few days.

The CHAIRMAN. That is a large part of your work, I suppose? Professor MOORE. Oh, yes; about $200,000 of our appropriation goes in telegraphing.

Mr. BURCH. This lady that is getting $1,400 is an expert. There are very few equal to her. She can handle her telegraph instrument and operate the telephone at the same time.

(The committee thereupon took a recess until 1.30 o'clock p. m.)

AFTERNOON SESSION.

STATEMENT OF SYLVESTER R. BURCH, ESQ., CHIEF CLERK OF THE DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE-Continued.

Mr. SAMUEL. I notice that you only receive a salary of $2,500. Is that the salary of all chief clerks?

Mr. BURCH. I think I am the only one receiving $2,500. I think that the others are all getting $3,000.

Mr. SAMUEL. What is the difference in your duties?

Mr. BURCH. They are given $500 extra as custodians of buildings. The CHAIRMAN. In the different Departments?