(Witness: Post.)

are not House documents, and therefore do not get into the hands of the folding room?

Mr. POST. No, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. And that is how you happen to have a good many of those on hand, and for those you have quite an extensive sale? Mr. Posт. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. And as a rule you do not get anything from the folding rooms, as surplus from them, that is of much market value or for which you have any call of any consequence?

Mr. POST. No, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Everything that appears to be practicable and useful they practically distribute to the limit of the allotment made

to them?

Mr. POST. Yes, sir.

COMMITTEE ON EXPENDITURES IN THE
DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE,

January 17, 1907.

The committee met at 10 o'clock a. m. Present: Representatives Littlefield (chairman) and Samuel. Present also: Representative Lovering, of Massachusetts; A. Zappone, esq., chief of the division of accounts and disbursements, Agricultural Department; Victor H. Olmsted, esq., Chief of the Bureau of Statistics, Agricultural Department; and William L. Post, esq., superintendent of documents, Government Printing Office.

FURTHER STATEMENT OF WILLIAM L. POST, ESQ., SUPERINTENDENT OF DOCUMENTS, GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Post, you stated to us the other day, as I remember, that there was an accumulation of something like 4,000,000 volumes of public documents in the Printing Department. I have here the report of your office for 1906, which states, on page 1, “ Publications on hand July 1, 1905, 1,051,107." Without understanding the situation, that would seem to be inconsistent with the statement which you made. Will you be kind enough to explain what the fact is?

Mr. POST. There were on hand at the time, July 1, 1905, a great many documents which were not counted in as stock-" dead stock,” we call it.

The CHAIRMAN. Did your aggregate of 4,000,000 include this. 1,051,107, or are those additional thereto?

Mr. POST. It included that; and the 700,000 which I spoke of as salable stock was also included.

The CHAIRMAN. So this report proceeds on the basis that you have at least 3,000,000 volumes that are not taken account of in any way in making your report, but are simply treated as so much dead lumber?

Mr. Posт. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. And of this 1,051,107, approximately, you estimate that only 700,000 of that is what you would call real live matter?" Mr. PosT. Yes, sir.

(Witness: Post.).

The CHAIRMAN. And in making an estimate of that as real live matter, are you conservative?

Mr. POST. I think so.

The CHAIRMAN. So that the real fact is, although it does not appear by this report, that there is an aggregate of about 3,300,000 volumes on hand of substantially dead matter, in your judgment? Mr. PosT. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Without this explanation, of course, the report would appear to be a little inconsistent.

Mr. POST. The great accumulations are contained in mail sacks, and stored in various rooms, in such a condition that you could only guess at the quantity. It would be impossible to count it.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes; you have to estimate it.

Mr. PosT. And perhaps when the stock is all counted it will fall short of 4,000,000 books. I am only guessing at that.

The CHAIRMAN. Precisely. Your estimate of the approximate value of the 4,000,000 volumes for waste paper was $30,000? Mr. POST. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. I notice that the accumulation increased during the year something like 250,000 volumes. That is, you had on hand on July 1, 1905, 1.051,107, and you had on hand June 30, 1906, 1,301,690, which is an increase of about 250,000 volumes. Has this accumulation of matter been increasing at that rate, or is this increase during the year 1906 unusual and abnormal?

Mr. POST. There has been a greater increase during this past year. Our statistics to date (statistics similar to those in that annual report, as made by the last monthly report to the Public Printer) show something over 2,050,000 books on hand and counted; but these were received not only from the Departments and depositories, but represent some of this dead stock which we had not counted before.

The CHAIRMAN. You say that the accumulations have increased during the year 1906?

Mr. PosT. Greatly.

The CHAIRMAN. What is the occasion of that increase?

Mr. POST. The people in charge of the Senate folding room, for instance, have only recently awakened to the fact that they could get rid of their surplus, and they have been turning it over to the superintendent of documents.

The CHAIRMAN. But they are simply clearing that out so as to get more storeroom?

Mr. POST. Clearing it out; yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. They want storeroom for lumber, and they are turning the documents over to you?

Mr. PosT. Yes; they are giving us what they do not want.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes; what they have not been able to use, and what they have not been able to get out. Is it not a fact that both the printing department and the other Departments have been making very vigorous efforts within the last year or two to get these documents out and into distribution?

Mr. PosT. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. And they have found it impossible to do so?

Mr. POST. Yes, sir. The fact is, the libraries are desirous of re

(Witness: Post.)

turning a great quantity of public documents rather than receiving them.

The CHAIRMAN. You mean these libraries throughout the country? Mr. PosT. I mean all of the libraries.

The CHAIRMAN. Could you give us a list of the publications these libraries want to return and do not want to receive, made up, so far as you can. from information your department has received?

Mr. POST. Yes, sir: I think we could. The majority of stock which they wish to return consists of Congressional documents, small Congressional documents which they accumulate through the kindness of Congressmen and their Senators.

The CHAIRMAN. Those that are of no general value?

Mr. POST. Those are the ones they want returned.

The CHAIRMAN. And those are mainly bound in law sheep?

Mr. POST. They are unbound, as a usual thing.

The CHAIRMAN. Will you furnish for us a list of the documents that the libraries are endeavoring to return and trying to prevent the receipt of?

Mr. POST. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. It has appeared before the committee that the folding room of the House had an accumulation of something like a million and a quarter volumes of Government publications. Have you any idea what the accumulation is on the Senate side?

Mr. POST. No, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Except that they have been pushing the lumber off onto you for the last year, at what rate? How many sacks full a day, at a time?

Mr. Posт. Oh, I could not say, but a great many; as many as we could take.

The CHAIRMAN. As many sacks full as you could take?

Mr. Posт. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. How long has that process of transportation been going on between the folding room of the Senate and the superintendent of documents' office? About a year?

Mr. POST. No: I should think about three or four months.

The CHAIRMAN. Has it been going right along pretty continuously during that time?

Mr. POST. As continuously as the weather and our facilities for receiving it would permit.

The CHAIRMAN. That is, just as fast as the weather and your facilities allowed, they have been carting this lumber from the folding room of the Senate over into the Government Printing Office?

Mr. POST. Yes, sir; cords of it; all wrapped for mailing.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes; and about how many volumes have they thus succeeded in crowding off onto your office?

Mr. PosT. Oh, I could not tell you.

The CHAIRMAN. Well, you have about 2,000,000 on hand now, you say?

Mr. POST. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. That is 700,000 more than you had on hand June 30, 1906; so that they have probably transferred

Mr. POST. Well, I can give you the exact figures on that.

(Witness: Post.)

The CHAIRMAN. Just give us the exact figures, then; just show us how much lumber they have transferred to your department.

Mr. PosT. In three months-September, October, and November— they turned over to us 127.428 books.

The CHAIRMAN. Now, this matter of the $10.000 a year rental: Was that based upon the rental actually paid, or the estimated value of the property for rental?

Mr. PosT. It was based upon the rental actually paid for the L street warehouse.

The CHAIRMAN. Is that $10,000?

Mr. POST. No; that is $5.000; a little over $5,000; $5,500, I think. But taking the cubic space of that warehouse and then figuring on the same basis the cubic space that we occupy, we arrived at the $10,000 basis.

The CHAIRMAN. How long has the Government been practically paying $10,000 a year rental for the purpose of storing this accumulation that is, about how long?

Mr. PosT. It began back in 1895, when the office of superintendent of documents was created, and the Interior Department began to take advantage of the law by turning over its large accumulation. But not until very recently-within the last three years, I should say-have we had any enormous accumulation on hand.

The CHAIRMAN. For about three years' time, then, the Government has been paying practically $10,000 a year simply to store these accumulations?

Mr. POST. Yes, sir. One instance that might be cited was that of the Census Office having on hand and paying for the storage in the Union Building of old census volumes, and finally they insisted, under the law, on turning them over to us. We finally took them, although we had no convenient place for them, and they have been moved twice since in order to make room for good stock; and I believe that the chief clerk of the Department said they saved about $3,000 a year by our taking them off their hands.

The CHAIRMAN. It saved about $3,000 that they were paying out for rental?

Mr. POST. Yes, sir. The accumulation is absolutely worthless. It is composed of those volumes of the Tenth and Eleventh censuses, which would not be called for, such as population-an enormous overprint of those certain volumes. The volumes on forestry, and everything of interest, had been culled out and distributed.

The CHAIRMAN. Those are the Tenth and Eleventh censuses?
Mr. PosT. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. And they are for what years?

Mr. POST. The Tenth, I think, was 1880, and the Eleventh was

1890.

The CHAIRMAN. Then since 1890 the result is that the Government has been paying $3,000 a year for the storage of that useless material?

Mr. POST. I should judge so. We endeavored to place it in libraries, and found no call for it whatever.

The CHAIRMAN. You could not get it out-you could not force it into distribution?

Mr. POST. We could not dispose of it at all.

(Witness: Post.)

Mr. SAMUEL. And you could not sell it?

Mr. PosT. No, sir; we could not even give it away.

The CHAIRMAN. You have occasion to know more or less about the accumulations in the various Departments of the Government, I suppose?

Mr. POST. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. What other Departments of the Government have accumulations of dead material in the line of printed matter?

Mr. POST. None. They have taken advantage pretty fully of the law since we have been able to take documents and have turned over all their accumulation to us. I think, perhaps, the War Department has a small accumulation; but that is because we have not been able to receive it; that is all.

The CHAIRMAN. So that under the law you are the clearing house for this waste?

Mr. PosT. Yes, sir.

Mr. SAMUEL. Have you any knowledge of the character of that which the Senate folding room sends over to you?

Mr. POST. Oh, yes, sir. It is composed of the extra prints of various Congressional documents, such as eulogies, and things of that kind that are not very popular. We get quantities of it-cords of it, you might say.

The CHAIRMAN. Of what?

Mr. POST. Of these Congressional documents, such as eulogies, etc., Special Reports on Diseases of Cattle. I know that there is a great pile of that there that is now obsolete because of more recent publications on the same subject.

The CHAIRMAN. Subsequent editions, do you mean?

Mr. POST. Yes, sir. Therefore it makes it very difficult to get rid of it by sale, because the office would not want to be in the position of advertising for sale a publication which had been superseded by something better.

Mr. SAMUEL. And you have no authority to sell it as old paper? Mr. POST. No, sir. That is the authority we would like to get. The CHAIRMAN. This resolution which you submitted to me and which will appear in our minutes gives that authority?

Mr. POST. Yes, sir; not only the authority to dispose of this accumulation, but in the future to do away with any such accumulation; to prevent it.

Mr. SAMUEL. That would save the storage rent?

Mr. POST. The storage rent and the time required for handling. We are, I think, better fitted to know what is valuable and what is not than any other people, because we are continually in close connection with all the libraries in the country.

The CHAIRMAN. You speak of time for handling. Is that an appreciable factor in the expense of keeping this accumulation on hand? Mr. PosT. Oh, yes; a very great factor.

The CHAIRMAN. What does it cost your department? In what way is expense incurred in handling in the manner of which you speak?

Mr. POST. I have been employing for the last six months 14 extra laborers to get this stock in order, to get it counted, in order to know

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