(Witness: Grayson.)

The CHAIRMAN. How many copies, in your judgment, would be sufficient to be printed of this list of expenditures of the Department of Agriculture, so far as their real, actual use is concerned? Or have you not made any estimate on that line?

Mr. GRAYSON. I could not say. I think 50 copies supply us with all we need. In fact, we do not have use for that number, but in case we should have, it is better to have a few on hand than not to

have any.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes. I notice by these regulations that the annual report of the Agricultural Department prior to the adoption of these regulations consisted of 4.854 copies, and under the new regulations 2,986, and that the number deposited in the document room was 420, and that you now have, under the new regulation, 100 copies. Will you be kind enough to state to the committee how much call there is at the document room for that report?

Mr. GRAYSON. That is not the Yearbook?

The CHAIRMAN. No; I should say not; it is the annual report.

Mr. GRAYSON. We do not have much of a call for it, but we do have more of a call for it than for the "Expenditures." There is very little call for that. That is not the Yearbook.

Mr. FLOOD. You do not have any Yearbooks sent to the document room, do you?

Mr. GRAYSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. FLOOD. How many?

Mr. GRAYSON. We get the usual number. We get the full number of that-420 copies.

The CHAIRMAN. Could you give any approximate estimate of the number of copies of the annual report that are called for?

Mr. GRAYSON. No, sir. We do not have but very few of them left anyway, but I could not say how many are used.

Mr. FLOOD. You do not have many left?

Mr. GRAYSON. No, sir.

Mr. FLOOD. Then they are called for?

Mr. GRAYSON. Not necessarily. At the end of the session we would save 15 or 20 copies and put them on the stacks.

Mr. FLOOD. What is done with the rest?

Mr. GRAYSON. They are sold for waste paper.

The CHAIRMAN. You say at the end of a Congress you save out 15 or 20 copies?

Mr. GRAYSON. Yes; generally about 15, so that if anyone called for a back number we could supply it. We have those stored down in the terrace.

The CHAIRMAN. And the balance you throw away?

Mr. GRAYSON. Yes; they are thrown in the waste paper.

The CHAIRMAN. How many would that be?

Mr. GRAYSON. I could not say, but I know only a few are called for.

Mr. FLOOD. What disposition do you make of the Yearbooks?
Mr. GRAYSON. We have been binding those for Members.

Mr. FLOOD. Do Members get them in addition to their regular

(Witnesses: Grayson, Smith.)

Mr. GRAYSON. They are supposed to. They do not always send in. Mr. FLOOD. What becomes of those not sent for?

Mr. GRAYSON. One Member might come in and want two or three copies of it, and we would give them to him.

The CHAIRMAN. Have you any method of calculating or ascertaining, except by approximate estimate, how many copies of these various documents are called for?

Mr. GRAYSON. No, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. All you could do is simply to state your general recollection of the facts?

Mr. GRAYSON. Yes. The Yearbook is generally called for, and the Report of the Secretary of the Navy goes out a great deal.

The CHAIRMAN. Here is the "Report of Operations of the Bureau of Animal Industry." There are now only 150 copies. Is that because there is not much call for it?

Mr. GRAYSON. There is not much call for it. It is on a par with the others there.

The CHAIRMAN. It is about the same as the statement of expenditures?

Mr. GRAYSON. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. I find of the Animal Industry Bureau reports of the Department you have 420 copies called for.

Mr. GRAYSON. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Of those you have not any to throw away?
Mr. GRAYSON. No, sir; we never throw away those.

Mr. FLOOD. What is that of?

The CHAIRMAN. The Animal Industry Bureau reports.

Mr. GRAYSON. I mean they are not thrown away for waste paper. The CHAIRMAN. What comes in besides the Department reports, the Statement of Expenditures, the Animal Industry Reports, the Report of Operations, and the Yearbook of the Department that you now remember?

Mr. GRAYSON. I do not remember any, except communications sent by the President to the House in answer to requests for information, or something of that kind. We have something about sugar beet. That is another one.

The CHAIRMAN. That is not a regular document?

Mr. AMZI SMITH. It has been for six or eight years.

The CHAIRMAN. It seems to be dropped out of this list here. Now, of the Yearbook of the Department of Agriculture you have the same allotment now that you have had heretofore, 420 volumes?

Mr. GRAYSON. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. We understand that those are quite generally called for, and the allotment is exhausted substantially?

Mr. GRAYSON. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Of the "Beet-sugar Industry in the United States, Progress," from the Agricultural Department, you have 100 under the new allotment, as against 360 heretofore.

Mr. GRAYSON. That is being called for, and I think this year the superintendent put in a request for the full quota. Last year we had a big demand. I do not know whether it was because of the agitation of the Cuban question, or what, but the demand came in for it.

(Witnesses: Grayson, Smith.)

The CHAIRMAN. Did the demand practically exhaust the supply in the document room?

Mr. GRAYSON. Yes, sir; but if we run short of a document that way we go to Mr. Smith and trade around and get them from him. He has charge of the Senate document room. If he gets short over there for anything, he comes over and we exchange with him.

Mr. SMITH. We exchange frequently, and save reprinting by so doing.

Mr. FLOOD. What is the necessity of the Yearbook being sent to the House document room?

Mr. GRAYSON. I do not think there is any.

Mr. FLOOD. Are not Members allotted by the Agricultural Department each year?

Mr. GRAYSON. The House prints so many that go through the folding room. I do not think the Department does.

Mr. FLOOD. The Members get these copies

Mr. GRAYSON. From the folding room.

Mr. FLOOD. And in addition to that they get them through your office?

Mr. GRAYSON. Yes. The order to print carries with it the unbound copies, the "up-number," as it is called, unless otherwise ordered. Mr. FLOOD. And there is really no necessity of this book being sent to the House document room?

Mr. GRAYSON. Not really.

Mr. FLOOD. Because you assign it to the Members after it gets there, and they can get it elsewhere, a number of copies?

66

Mr. GRAYSON. Yes; but still that comes in under the general act. The CHAIRMAN. Are we to understand that the documents that have been heretofore classified under the head of "up-number" and reserve," aggregating, in the case of the "Detailed statement of expenditures in the Agricultural Department" prior to the adoption of these regulations, 1,854, have been all that have been heretofore published by the Government for any and all purposes?

Mr. GRAYSON. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. In other words, 1,854 copies are all that have been heretofore published under the provisions of the general law that would be automatically operating?

Mr. GRAYSON. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. And if any additional copies of this document or any other document standing in like relation to the general law are published, it is by virtue of some special resolution relating thereto? Mr. GRAYSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. FLOOD. What do you mean by "up-number?" I did not catch that.

Mr. GRAYSON. That is the unbound number that comes to us. The up-number" is the Congressional number printed for the House and Senate and the Departments.

(Witness: Smith.)

STATEMENT OF MR. AMZI SMITH, SUPERINTENDENT, DOCUMENT ROOM OF SENATE.

(The witness was duly sworn by the chairman.)

The CHAIRMAN. You are the superintendent of the Senate document room?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Will you be kind enough to state, for the information of the committee, how many copies of the document entitled "Detailed statement of expenditures of the Agricultural Department" are ordinarily called for in your document room?

Mr. SMITH. Very few. I think it was cut down from 150 to 50 last year under the new law.

The CHAIRMAN. It was cut down in the House document room from 420 to 50 and in the Senate document room from 150 to 50? Mr. SMITH. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. We are told by Mr. Grayson that the call in the House document room only amounts to something like 15 or 20, and during some of the sessions there is no call at all. Now, what is the fact in your room, so far as you remember?

Mr. SMITH. So far as my room is concerned, from 25 to 30 copies per year is all the call we have; not over that.

The CHAIRMAN. What do you do with your extra copies?

Mr. SMITH. We keep a file of them, depending altogether on how many I have left at the end of each session; but I keep in the neighborhood of 25 copies.

The CHAIRMAN. And the balance you throw in waste paper?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. You pick out these?

Mr. SMITH. Yes; pick out those that are torn and defaced.

The CHAIRMAN. You have no knowledge of these other Departments, have you?

Mr. SMITH. NO; I have not, except general information.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you have a similar report-that is, a statement of expenditures from the Department of State, from the Treasury Department, War Department, Navy Department, Post-Office Department, Interior Department, and Department of Justice?

Mr. SMITH. We have statements each year of expenditures from the contingent fund that are printed separately; but for general expenditures we go to the annual reports.

The CHAIRMAN. So that the statements of expenditures that you get from those Departments are not on all fours like the statement that comes from the Agricultural Department, because that includes everything.

Mr. SMITH. Yes; that includes everything. That was done by the act of January 12, 1895, when the administrative portion of the report was cut out from the other portions of the report and the Yearbook provided for. Up to that time the two were together.

The CHAIRMAN. Has there been any more call for such statements as have been made public documents from the other Departments than you have had for that from the Department of Agriculture? Mr. SMITH. Just about the same, I should think. This cutting

23848-07-2

(Witnesses: Smith, Post.)

down, Mr. Littlefield, of the number of documents is an experiment with us. You see, this is the first year. When we went over this and these numbers were settled, I tried to be on the safe side.

The CHAIRMAN. That is, your estimates of decreases were conservative?

Mr. SMITH. Yes: I wanted to be on the safe side. It is barely possible that after a year or two's experience some of these might perhaps be cut down a little further.

The CHAIKMAN. And the cut-downs that were made by the Committee on Printing, so far as your room is concerned, were made after consultation with you?

Mr. SMITH. Oh, yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. And, as you say, you gave them rather a minimum than a maximum in order to see what the results would be by experience of the reduced number?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. So that it will be possible for us later on, perhaps, to make still further reductions?

Mr. SMITH. Yes; still further reductions, and perhaps some increases of others; but I do not think there will be much increase. The CHAIRMAN. Those numbers published heretofore have been published in accordance with the provisions of the general law? Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Are those documents thus published without some order of some officer of either the House or Senate, as a matter of course?

Mr. SMITH. As a matter of course, they are placed there to be transmitted officially.

The CHAIRMAN. And the transmission results as a matter of law, and the publication of the reports, as you understand it, is in consequence of law?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. So that if there have been excessive numbers printed it was in consequence of the operation of a general statute? Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir. There were excessive numbers printed until this went into effect.

STATEMENT OF MR. WILLIAM L. POST, SUPERINTENDENT OF DOCUMENTS, GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE.

(The witness was duly sworn by the chairman.) The CHAIRMAN. What position do you hold, please? Mr. POST. Superintendent of documents.

The CHAIRMAN. Now explain to the committee, Mr. Post, please, what disposition is made of documents that appear in the regulations of the Joint Committee on Printing under the title of "House Documents" and under the subject head of "Bound;" first 502 volumes, "Superintendent of Documents, depositaries." Now what is done?

Mr. POST. They are the sheep-bound Congressional documents, sent to designated depositaries, provided by law and designated by each Member and Senator in the States and Territories.

The CHAIRMAN. This particular document we are now inquiring