Mr. BURRUS. That is definitely my opinion; yes, sir.

Mr. FORRESTER. A man who would think that would stop with a truce over there, he would believe in fairies, would he not? Mr. BURRUS. I believe so.

Mr. PICKETT. I understood you to say in substance that none of these 60 powers we are dealing with is based upon a proclamation of a state of emergency in December 1950.

Mr. BURRUS. That is correct.

Mr. PICKETT. Does this bill contain all of the laws that all of the agencies involved requested to be extended, or did you just cut out some of them that they asked for, notwithstanding?

Mr. BURRUS. We did not arbitrarily cut out any. We did discuss matters with them and I think we convinced them on a number of items that they were not needed, and I think they convinced us several items were not needed, that we first thought were essential. It ended up as I stated. Generally there is no law that they felt was absolutely essential to their operations that is not contained

Mr. PICKETT. Then your request for these 60 powers contains every request that is made by every agency involved?

Mr. BURRUS. I can answer that "yes" if you rule out laws that the agencies wanted to have amended. We did not want to put in any laws in here that required amendments. We thought that should be done by independent legislation so we could keep this as noncontroversial as possible, and confine ourselves to the essential purpose of this legislation.

Mr. PICKETT. The statement in your report appears on page 4. The last sentence of the paragraph that starts first on that page reads:

The bill as it now stands represents agreement among the agencies concerning the items in it, and every item within its scope which any agency desired included is included, with one exception mentioned below.

Mr. BURRUS. That is correct.

Mr. PICKETT. Then you did include everything they asked for after you got through agreeing with them.

Mr. BURRUS. That is right.

Mr. PICKETT. Can you tell me how many were requested by the other agencies concerned that you talked them out of, as a matter of general information?

Mr. BURRUS. It would just be an opinion.
study of it. I would say roughly a half dozen.
Mr. POLLAK. I think that is about right.
Mr. BURRUS. Does that jibe with you?

I have not made any
What would you say?

Colonel HEARNE. Yes. There were four of five in Defense. Mr. PICKETT. Then if they asked for 66 or 67 to be continued, you talked them out of a half dozen or so.

Mr. BURRUS. That is right.

Mr. PICKETT. Then in effect these 60 are what they asked for. Of course, whether the committee and the Congress will agree with your request is what we are here to determine.

Mr. BURRUS. That is correct.

Mr. PICKETT. I understand from the preliminary discussions we have had here there are some of these existing emergency statutes that are being considered for extension on a permanent basis. I presume that during the course of the discussion the witness will indicate which

ones of these they want to extend on a permanent basis and tell us the present state of the record in that regard?

Mr. BURRUS. Let it be understood that the witnesses are instructed to do that.

Mr. FORRESTER. Do you mean to tell me that some of these powers asked for are asked to be made permanent?

Mr. BURRUS. In the form of permanent laws. Not in this bill, no, but by independent legislation. The Patent Secrecy Act is one example of that. That was included in our bill and it was passed by Congress several weeks ago. I think that is in the form of permanent legislation.

Mr. FORRESTER. But that is not in this bill?

Mr. BURRUS. It was in this bill and it has been taken out. There may be others in that status now. The patent royalty adjustment is one that is before you.

Mr. FORRESTER. The reason I ask about that, I want to be mighty sympathetic about these requests, but I doubt very seriously that I would ever agree to make any power over to the President permanent. I think I would let Congress do that.

Mr. PICKETT. All we are dealing with in these 60 proposals is a temporary extension, dependent upon the existing state of emergency. Mr. BURRUS. That is correct.

Mr. PICKETT. Anything we do here is temporary only.

Mr. BURRUS. That is correct.

Mr. PICKETT. Such consideration as ought to be given by the Congress to a request for a permanent power that is involved in this subject would come in those instances, to say the least, before another committee, and a special study made of it.

Mr. BURRUS. We look upon this bill as a holding action. I think we all want to be concerned that we do not jeopardize our defense activities or fail in our obligations under the United Nations. That is the spirit in which we entered upon this job, of wanting to put the facts before the Congress, rather than urging or insisting on any of these laws.

We are not here actually as protagonists for them. We will explain them and tell you in our opinion why we think they are necessary, and tell you those we think are not necessary. We have no intention to drive for these laws. I think that Congress is aware of the situation as well as we are.

Mr. FORRESTER. That is a fine statement.

Mr. FEIGHAN. You mentioned that some of the agencies have particular statutes they would like to have amended. Were those statutes included among these 60?

Mr. BURRUS. Yes, sir; the subject matter is here. We have continued them in force and effect as they are, without any changes. There are not so many of those that I know about, but there are a few. We have advised the agencies that it would be better to introduce them as independent bills.

I think they would go before the committee that is familiar with that subject matter. The way this bill now stands, we have a cold war situation today, and we have certain laws that are in existence. When the treaty is ratified and the technical state of war is over, we will still have exactly the same conditions and we think we should have some of the same laws.

Mr. FEIGHAN. I think it would be fine for the record if you would point out the particular statutes that you have included among the 60 which the particular agency involved feels should be amended. We would also like to know to what extent they would like to amend

it.

Mr. BURRUS. We would either have to do that by having each witness remember to point that out or make a survey. I know through our negotiations in a general way, but it is nothing that we kept a record of. We left that to the responsibility of the agency if they wanted the law changed.

The first item that we would ask to be kept in effect is 1 (a) (5), that is the authorization for detailing Armed Forces personnel to the Veterans' Administration.

Colonel HEARNE. That is on page 13 of your House Document 368. The witnesses are Mr. Knapp and Mr. Bland from the Veterans' Administration.

STATEMENT OF DONALD C. KNAPP, ACCOMPANIED BY G. R. STEVENS, VETERANS' ADMINISTRATION

Mr. POLLAK. Just two sentences are pertinent. I am reading the second paragraph of 38 U. S. C. 693b.

Mr. BURRUS. Excuse me. When you say "pertinent” do you mean the sentences that we have included in the bill?

Mr. POLLAK. That is correct.

It is everything that is in the bill:

Nothing in sections 301 and 305—

and a number of other sections which I will not read

of the appendix to title 50, or any Act, shall be construed to prevent the transfer or detail of any commissioned, appointed, or enlisted personnel from the Armed Forces to the Veterans' Administration subject to agreements between the Secretary of War and the Secretary of the Navy and the Administrator of Veterans' Affairs: Provided, That no such detail shall be made or extended beyond 6 months after the termination of the war.

That was enacted in 1944, and the reference to the war, therefore, is a reference to the present state of war.

Mr. FEIGHAN. You may proceed.

Mr. KNAPP. I am Donald C. Knapp of the Office of Legislation, Veterans' Administration.

Mr. Chairman, this provision is a part of the Servicemen's Readjustment Act of 1944 which we all know as the GI bill. Congress inserted this particular administrative provision in that bill, among others, at a time during the war when the personnel problems of the Veterans' Administration, a civilian agency, were very acute because of the great movement of personnel to the Armed Forces, to defense industries, causing shortages throughout the agency, particularly among the medical and allied personnel, doctors, dentists, nurses, and hospital attendants.

The law provides that nothing in the Selective Training and Service Act, or any other Act shall prohibit the detail or transfer of personnel from the Armed Forces to the VA under agreements entered into with the Secretaries and the service departments. It appears that there was

some concern as to whether the broad mandatory language of the Selective Service Act, which in effect said that a man will be inducted and will serve a stated period of active service, might preclude in appropriate and urgent cases a transfer or detail to another agency, such as the Veterans' Administration.

In any event, this provision has been considered our specific statutory authority for that purpose. Under the authorization there were, at a peak time, about 7,000 enlisted men who were detailed under agreements between Secretary Stimson, later Secretary Patterson, and the Administrator, for short periods of service as hospital attendants. In terms of numbers involved that was probably our most critical category of scarce employees.

Mr. FEIGHAN. Would you repeat that? Did you say 7,000?

Mr. KNAPP. Slightly over 7,000 was the highest number at any one time so detailed, as hospital attendants. That occurred in late 1945. I might say, Mr. Chairman, that that figure was the peak attained in October 1945. It then rapidly fell to 3,000 in December, to less than a thousand in the following March, and by September 1946 there were no enlisted men so detailed, and there have been none since that date. In the commissioned officer class there were, under agreements with the Secretary, a number of officers who were either in the Reserve or were commissioned AUS-Army of the United States-particularly doctors and dentists, who were in key positions in the Veterans' Administration. Upon being called to active duty they were then immediately detailed by the Secretary to the Veterans' Administration, and they continued on in their VA activities. Probably the largest number of commissioned officers detailed to the Veterans' Administration came from the so-called V-12 Navy, and ASTP Army medical education programs wherein eligible enlisted men were trained and were educated in the medical and dental fields.

At the conclusion of their period of training, they then entered upon a mandatory 2-year period of active commissioned service. They had agreed upon entering the program to serve a minimum of 2 years after their graduation or completion. There were substantial numbers of those classes who were detailed to the Veterans' Administration. In approximate numbers there were 1200 V-12 and ASTP doctors so assigned to the Veteran's Administration.

The last group, composed of approximately 30 officers, came with General Bradley to the Veterans' Administration at the time of his appointment and shortly thereafter. Since September 1948, at which time the last of the V-12 and ASTP officers had completed their mandatory 2-year period of service, there has been no officer or enlisted man so detailed to the VA. At the present time we are in a declared emergency, we are in a cold war

Mr. FEIGHAN. May I interrupt? That is nothing new. We have been in a declared emergency since 1939 and again in 1941, and again

in 1950.

Mr. KNAPP. That is right, sir.

Mr. FEIGHAN. And we were still, if I may interrupt, in that emergency from the period at which time there were no members of the Armed Forces that had been assigned under these particular provisions.

Mr. KNAPP. That is correct, Mr. Chairman. We were technically under the old emergencies. The hostilities, of course, in World War

II had been terminated. During the period from 1948 to 1950 however, from the standpoint of recruitment and personnel generally, the agency was in a fairly normal peacetime situation.

However, with the outbreak of the Korean conflict and the very substantial stepping up of the defense activities and mobilization generally, we have, since June 1950, lost to the Armed Forces almost 200 full-time doctors, 465 residents, over 700 nurses, and over 1,900 other medical and allied personnel which are necessary to maintain the efficient operation of our hospitals which now number 152 throughout the United States.

Mr. FORRESTER. May I interrupt you there?

Mr. KNAPP. Yes, sir.

Mr. FORRESTER. How did you lose all those people to the armed services when you had this law, when this law was in force?

Mr. KNAPP. Congressman, this law requires, upon request of the VA for such details

Mr. FORRESTER. In other words, you have not made your request? Mr. KNAPP. We had not as yet made a request or asked for agreements with the Secretaries. These losses have, of course, been a few at a time with increasing tempo as we have come along to the present time.

Mr. FORRESTER. I think that is an answer to my question, you have not made a request.

Mr. KNAPP. That is correct.

Mr. PICKETT. Mr. Knapp, you have lost the total given here. Have those been voluntary departures for the most part?

Mr. KNAPP. With respect to the officers, I should say voluntary where they were called to active duty at their own request. Otherwise it was not voluntary.

Mr. PICKETT. How many of them just quit the VA and went into one of the several branches of service because they wanted to? Do you know?

Mr. KNAPP. I do not have a breakdown as to that.

Mr. PICKETT. Can you tell us how many were called in because they were Reserve officers or Reserve personnel, whether officers, enlisted men or what not?

Mr. KNAPP. With respect to the doctors and dentists and nurses, I do not have the specific breakdown. But I would venture the opinion that practically all of those were in Reserve units and were called to active duty as reservists.

Mr. FORRESTER. Since you have had this tremendous loss in personnel at the VA, is that due to the fact that you have always had more than you wanted, or are you now in a situation where the VA is lagging behind and not doing what it should do? There is a tremendous loss, over 700 nurses, over 200 doctors, several hundred enlisted men.

Mr. KNAPP. We are facing a very serious personnel problem.
Mr. FORRESTER. When did you start facing this? This is a tre-

mendous loss.

Mr. KNAPP. This substantial loss to the Armed Forces has developed since the outbreak of hostilities in Korea.

Mr. FORRESTER. What I am getting at, you lost about 2,000 men according to those figures.

Mr. KNAPP. Over 3,000, including all types of personnel.