any loss to them, and the State would be debarred from taxing those lands which the road would have so much increased in value. He would ask the gentleman from Maine, whether such a restriction on the State of Ohio agreed with his ideas of justice or magnanimity? He certainly considered that Congress was bound to assist this object.

Mr. MACON said, that the State of Ohio, he knew, could not tax the public lands for five years after they were sold; and gentlemen talked of this, as if it was a great hardship. But it always appeared to him to be a benefit to the State, rather than an injury. It would do the State, he thought, very little good to tax people when they had first settled in a wild country, and when they had nothing to pay taxes with. It was supposed that the State ought to wait until they had scraped a little something together, before they began to tax them; and not lay a tax on poor People in the woods, who had as much as they could do to keep body and soul together. The exemption from taxation for five years, seemed to him to have been of great benefit to the State of Ohio, as it had brought in people to settle, and in that way increased the population.

[FEB. 17, 1827.

day. The law had fixed no time to carry its provisions into effect. And what would gentlemen think of a contract between individuals in which no time was fixed for its fulfilment? Did gentlemen pretend to say that this system was new? Was it not began in Virginia, and had it not been practised in almost all the States in the Union? Gentlemen might go to the top of the dome of the Capitol, and look down upon the city, and they would see pavements along their avenue, which had cost thousands; and a bill was now on the table to increase that expense several thousand dollars, in paving it in the McAdam fashion, to keep the feet of members of Congress from the mud, while the People, who were struggling in the forest, were forgotten, and any application for their assistance, was rejected, as a matter of course. The gifts of the United States were scarce, indeed, to the Western States; and, as to the two per cent. that had been so much talked of, it was an Indian gift-Congress had given it, and then taken it away.

Mr. HENDRICKS then moved to amend the bill, by giving two alternate sections on each side of the road to the company.

Mr. HOLMES said that, as he had before observed, he Mr. RUGGLES observed, that Ohio, with 800,000 in-thought this donation too large; he therefore suggested habitants, was not wanting in enterprise, and could make to modify the amendment, so as to grant one alternate her own roads. As proof of this, he might mention that section on each side of the road; which was acceded to the State was now engaged in making a canal 300 miles by Mr. HENDRICKS. in length, which promised benefit to the Union at large. In this case they wanted a road, and they asked Congress, as a great land-holder, to do their share towards it, as far as it went through their lands. There was nothing unreasonable in this, nor was it more than any individual land-holder would be willing to accede to. He observed, that the road was an important one in a national point of view, as well as promising to be of much consequence in enhancing the value of the public lands near it.

Mr. WOODBURY inquired whether this Columbus and Sandusky Turnpike Company was a public or private association? If the State of Ohio was the party to whom the land was given, it would be recollected that Congress had already given to that State the extension of the Cumberland road, as an equivalent for an exemption of public lands from taxation, for five years after their sale. If this land was to be given to individuals, he saw no reason why they should be permitted to collect tolls from the United States. He thought, at least to the United States, the road ought to be free.

After a continuation of the debate by Messrs. WOODBURY, HARRISON, CHANDLER, JOHNSON, of Ky. SMITH, of Md. HOLMES, and RUGGLES, the amendment was adopted, 19 to 15; when the bill was ordered to be engrossed for a third reading.

IMPROVEMENT OF THE NAVY.

The bill for the gradual improvement of the Navy of the United States, was read the third titne.

Mr. HOLMES said that this was an important bill, and it would be recollected that he had taken some part in the discussion upon it a few days since. He had opposed some provisions of the bill, and, among others, that for the establishment of a Naval Academy; and, although his opinions remained unchanged on those points, still there were so many good parts to the bill, that he felt constrained to waive his objections to those provisions, and give his vote in its favor. He would, therefore, call for the yeas and nays.

The question on the passage of the bill was then taken, and decided in the affirmative, by the following vote: YEAS.-Messrs. Barton, Bateman, Bell, Berrien, Bou

Mr. HARRISON said, that the land was to be given to the State for the specific purpose of aiding the company in completing the road; and care would be taken that in-ligny, Chambers, Chase, Clayton, Edwards, Harrison, dividuals should not reap a benefit intended to be given to the United States.

Mr. WOODBURY added, that it was a legal question whether the State could do otherwise than release the lands to the company. He considered that the State

could do nothing further.

Mr. HOLMES asked, whether the donation of land was to effect more than the construction of the road through the lands belonging to the United States? So far he thought Congress ought to go, being bound to do so both by considerations of justice and interest.

Mr. NOBLE said, that the Western States had been unjustly charged with immodesty in their demands upon Congress. The fact was, that they had been treated, in many instances, with any thing but justice; and, if excitement was raised, the members from the West were not in fault.

A law had formerly been passed, granting two per cent. on sales of land to some of the Western States, which, by many of them, has never been realized. There was no limitation to the law; and, until within two years, Ohio had not received it, and the States of Indiana, Illinois, and Missouri, had not received one farthing to this

Hayne, Holmes, Johnston, of Louisiana, Kane, Knight,
Mills, Noble, Reed, Ridgely, Robbins, Sanford, Seymour,
Silsbee, Smith, of Md. Thomas, Van Buren, Willey,
Woodbury.-28.

NAYS-Messrs. Benton, Branch, Chandler, Dickerson,
Eaton, Findlay, Johnson, of Ky. King, McKinley, Macon,
Marks, Randolph, Rowan, Ruggles, Smith, of S. C. Taze-
well, White, Williams.-18.

After some conversation with regard to giving the Woollens' Bill the preference, the Senate proceeded to the consideration of the bill providing for the trial and adjustment of land claims in the Southwestern States and Territories. The reading of the bill, by sections, was then commenced, and its details explained by Mr. SMITH, of South Carolina.

Mr. REED moved an amendment to strike out the word Mississippi, wherever it occurred, throughout the bill.

This motion was supported by Mr. REED, at considerable length, and opposed by Messrs. KANE and SMITH, of S. C.; but the Senate adjourned without taking the question on the motion.

MONDAY, FEBRUARY 19, 1827.

DUTY ON WOOLLENS.

Mr. DICKERSON moved to take up the bill to increase the duties on certain manufactured articles of woollens, in order to make it the special order of the day for to-mor

row.

Mr. BERRIEN said, he believed this to be a proper time to propose the reference of this bill to the Finance Committee. It seemed to have been generally agreed, when the reference was discussed a few days since, that this bill contained provisions which rendered it a measure properly to be referred to the Finance Committee as well as to that on Manufactures. At the present time, it was a question of serious import, what effect it was likely to have on the finances of the country. He therefore moved to refer the bill to the Committee on Finance.

[SENATE.

Senate to send this bill to the Finance Committee, that at least one report might be had upon it. He would ask even the friends of the bill, whether it was not proper, whether it was not a duty of the Senate, that the country at large should be informed of the effect which this measure was likely to have on the finances of the country? It might be beneficial-that was yet to be inquired into ; it might also be injurious, to a vast extent, and this doubtful question ought to be decided, as far as foresight and investigation could effect it, before the bill was passed upon. The Senate had appointed a committee of experienced men, to consult upon all questions touching the subject of finance, and they ought to be directed to consider the bill in its bearing on that department. The rea sons advanced against this reference, were two-the first, that there was not time to allow the investigation required of the Finance Committee; and the second, that the memMr. DICKERSON said, that, when it was taken into bers of that committee were unfriendly to the measure. consideration that the Finance Committee were ignorant It had been said by the gentleman from New Jersey, that of the details of the bill, and that they must therefore ap- the Chairman of the committee was opposed to the bill. ply for information to the Treasury Department; that the This would not, however, be of any weight, as the opingentismen of that Committee were avowedly inimical to ions of that gentleman would not prejudge the bill, or the will; and that the delay which was thus proposed, delay its progress. The gentleman, it was true, had said would most probably destroy it, he was constrained to op- that it would be necessary to apply to the Treasury Depose the reference. He was convinced, if the motion partment; and, if it was admitted that the bill could not was adopted, the bill would be lost, as the time taken up be safely passed, without such an application, should they in the inquiry would make the action upon it so late, that go on recklessly, and pass the bill without it? Should it would be impossible to pass it this year. It was very they adopt a measure of so much importance, without evident that it must be acted upon soon, if at all, this ses- having obtained light upon its effects-without being sension. As he therefore considered the motion made to de-sible of what they were doing? But the gentleman from feat the bill, he would ask the yeas and nays on the ques- New Jersey said, that a reference to the Finance Committee would prevent the bill from being acted upon this year. And was this a good reason for neglecting to take the usual precaution? When a measure of such extensive consequences was presented to the Senate, should they act upon it without information, because it was feared that it could not otherwise be acted upon this year? The time was come for referring the bill to the Finance Com mittee; and, in case the motion was adopted, the information required could be immediately obtained, and the bill would be speedily reported upon.

tion.

Mr. HOLMES observed, that, in some remarks on this subject, made by him a few days since, he had stated that it was proper that the bill should go to the Committee of Finance, to allow an inquiry whether the finances of the country could bear the measure, should it be found, in other respects, a beneficial bill. He also thought so now. He was of opinion that it should be referred to the Finance Committee, supposing it did not injure the bill. He had supposed, when it went to the Committee on Manufactures, that it would have been reported upon, and then, Mr. DICKERSON remarked, that, if this course was that it would have gone to the Finance Committee, giv- taken, a motion would doubtless be made hereafter, to ing them the advantage of the views of the Committee on refer the bill to the Committee on Agriculture, for an inManufactures. He was now sorry that the views present- quiry into its probable effects on that interest; and thus ed by the Chairman of that Committee had not been it would be bandied about, from committee to committee, printed; as he wished, before the bill went farther, to have until the object of postponing it until next year, should the views of that committee, and he should therefore op- have been attained. Gentlemen were aware that the bill pose, at this time, its reference to the Committee on Fi-had long been under the consideration of the other House, yet they said, that a detailed report was to have been exMr. SMITH, of Maryland, said that he believed the Fi-pected from the Committee on Manufactures, although it nance Committee would endeavor to understand the bill perfectly, before they reported it; although they would give rise to no unnecessary delay. He understood, when the bill went to the Committee on Manufactures, that it went there as a manufacturer's bill; also, that when it should be sent to the Finance Committee, it would be as a finance bill, and that, as such, they would be bound to examine its effect on the revenue, and report the result of that examination.

nance.

Mr. HAYNE said, he had been afraid that the time would never come, to refer this bill to the Finance Committee. When that reference had been urged, a few days since, it had been said that it was not the proper time, and that the bill must first have a reference to the Committee on Manufactures. It had, accordingly, taken that direction, and that committee had reported it without one particle of information, as to its effects, either upon the manufacturing or the financial interests of the country. No views had been afforded the Senate, from that committee; for Mr. H. put aside the views of the Chairman, as those of an individual: but it had been laid upon the table, just as it came from the other House. And now, they ask the

was well known that it would have occasioned a delay of several days; and his motion now was intended to put the bill in such a state of progress, as to bring it up at as early a period as possible, for the consideration of the Senate. The fullest investigation of the subject had taken place in the other House, and he thought a report upon it now would rather encumber than elucidate it. He also recollected, that, on a former occasion, the Committee on Manufactures did not report upon a similar bill. The tariff bill of 1824 was reported upon immediately, as in this instance, and among the members of that committee, was a correct and able merchant from Massachusetts, [Mr. LLOYD] who did not advise an elaborate report. If the committee had reported on this bill ever so copiously, they could have given no more information than was contained in the documents now on the table. As to the views of the committee or of himself, should the bill be considered by the Senate, they would be explained in the debate upon its merits. He hoped, therefore, that it might be speedily acted upon.

Mr. BRANCH observed, that, when, the other day, this bill was referred to the Committee on Manufactures, he

SENATE.]

Duty on Woollens.

[FEB. 19, 1827.

had hoped the gentlemen who had advocated it, would be been for three months, in one way or another, before Condisposed to allow it to be examined in all its bearings. He gress. The motion was now to refer it to the Finance had hoped particularly, that its effects upon the revenue Committee, and if it prevailed, the bill would be killed; might be thoroughly investigated. Would it be a sign of for when reported upon, it would be too late to act upon wisdom to allow a bill to pass, which assailed the resour-it during this session. It was objected that this measure ces of the country, without even inquiring how far its would affect the revenue; but, gentlemen did not reeffects were to extend? Were they to pass, so lightly, a member that a bill was passed a few days since, to reduce bill which might bring upon the People the evil of di- the duties on teas, wines, &c. He believed there was no rect taxation? When the situation of the country, when report from the Finance Committee on that. [Mr. SMITH, the excitement raised by this bill, and the effects predi- of Maryland, said there was one last year.] Mr. RUGcated, were taken into consideration, the Senate had great GLES: The reduction on those articles was greater reason for investigating this measure closely, and keeping than that contemplated by this bill, yet, there appeared a wary eye on its results. In the commercial emporium to be no alarm then. Now, when it is proposed to assist of the country this excitement was great, and called for the manufacturers, weakened and depressed by compeattention. He alluded to the memorial of the New York titition, they were told that the revenue would not perChamber of Commerce, which told them that, by pass- mit. Other parts of the country, and other classes of ing this bill, they would reduce the revenue more than community were flourishing; and when two thirds of the one million and a half. And when they were told this, was country were anxious for the passage of this bill, he it proper to depend upon chance; to pass this bill at all thought the Senate were bound to take it up. There was hazards, and trust, in so momentous a question, to the no necessity for referring it to the Finance Committee. wild dreams of conjecture? The gentleman from New He knew that the gentlemen of that Committee were Jersey had said that the bill might be referred to the ready to act upon it. The Chairman was too well acCommittee on Agriculture. But it was not so. The Com- quainted with every subject touching the finances, to be mitee on Agriculture was a mere excrescence in the Sen- unprepared to act upon the bill. Mr. R. should be pleasate, and had no weight; still, he thought the interests of ed to hear that gentleman, when the bill came up, on its the agriculturists entitled to attention, even on a subject effect upon the revenue. If revenue was the sole object, like this; and that it would as well become the Senate why not destroy all the manufactures of the country, to inquire into the effect of the bill upon the agricultural and all the cotton plantations? Then, the Government interest as any other. He hoped the motion of the gen- might collect a boundless revenue; but the effect would tleman from Georgia would prevail. He believed the ef- be to desolate the whole country: for the wealth of a nafect of the bill would be far more important on the reve- tion depended upon the encouragement of its industry. nue than was by many supposed. He believed that if its The gentleman from South Carolina was not unreasonaresults were such as were feared by the opponents of the bly opposed to the bill. It was against the interest of his measure, it would eventuate in direct taxation. He be- constitutents, to manufacture a yard of cloth in the coun. lieved that such was the tendency of many of the mea- try. Their shipping would not then be employed to imsures of late gaining ground. And when that time ar- port it. But it must be recollected, that manufactures rived, he trusted that the People would rise in their ma- were the cause of the cheapness of articles. If there were jesty, and arrest the wheels of Government in their ruin- none, the merchant would charge what price he pleased. ous carcer. But a few days since some of the gentlemen The more manufactures were encouraged, the more the who now appeared in favor of this bill opposed most stren- prices would be reduced. uously the reduction of the duty on salt. The reduction of 500,000 dollars of revenue was then declared alarming. What then would be the effect of this bill? It was well known that the People of the South were never more embarrassed. They were not able to bear this burthen, much less a resort to direct taxation. At present they were scarcely able to support the expenses of their establishments; and yet, because there happened to be a liitle excitement among the manufacturers; because their profits were not large enough; the People were to be saddled with this bill. He respected the gentleman from New Jersey, and was sorry to see him enlisted under such banners. That very gentleman admitted the depression of the agricultural class in his own State, and still he was about to burthen them further. Mr. B. said he wished he could see that gentleman in the State which he [Mr. B.] represented. He would commiserate the condition of those whom he was now striving to depress.

They had but a few remaining days to act at all; and he could not, on the ground that otherwise the bill would not be acted on this session, consent to rush into the consideration of it unprepared. It were far better to wait until next year. He believed that the most pernicious effects would spring from the bill; that it would tend to sever the bonds of the community, and weaken the affections of the People, while it would forge chains for the hands of the agriculturists of the country.

Mr. RUGGLES hoped a fair opportunity would be given to decide on the merits of the bill. Gentlemen complained that they were uninformed as to its design and effects. But, there were various memorials on the table in relation to the subject; it had been for many weeks under discussion in the other House; and it had

Mr. BERRIEN said, that the gentleman from Ohio mistook his object in making the motion for the reference to the Finance Committee. It was not only to obtain information for himself, but he desired to have placed on the tables of the Senators, an official statement, as to the effect of this bill on the revenue, with the documents on which that statement is founded. This was not to be obtained from the other House; and it could come from no source with so much propriety as from the Committee to which he moved to refer it. He expressed surprise at the course the discussion had taken. When the subject had been debated a few days since, it was said that it was merely a question of order and of time, as to its reference to the Committee on Finance. That it should be so re. ferred, was then admitted; but it was urged, that its first reference should be to the Committee on that interest which was to be protected by the measure. It had been referred to the Committee on Manufactures, and no report had been made upon it. Here was a measure for the benefit of a particular class of the community, and by which the finances of the country were to be affected, and through them, the whole country. Was it, then, unreasonable to ask that the Finance Committee should examine the bill, and weigh its consequences? But, the friends of the bill opposed the reference, because it was now too late to admit of this investigation. On the contrary, he thought that, if a bill came before the Senate at so late a period that it could not be acted upon as the subject demanded, it should not be acted upon this year. But, the gentlemen in favor of this bill, did not act in concert. Their arguments at least were at variance. One said, that it was too late to admit of the elaborate investi gation required to obtain information upon this subject (

FEB. 19, 1827.]

Duty on Woollens.

386

[SENATE.

while another had said that the Finance Committee were it would be at least two millions. If it did increase the already in possession of that information. But, the object revenue this year, he doubted whether it would make up with Mr. B. was, that the Senate should act as it ought. the deficiency which had been discovered. But the merHe wished that an official report might be obtained, that chants could not import again, and they would lose the the People might see under what circumstances the Sen-whole amount of duties. He might, possibly, be led away ate had acted on this occasion. country. It was, however, his duty to feel as he did, as by his desire to keep sound and safe the revenue of the long as he was not willing to witness a wanton reduction of the finances, for the benefit of one grasping-class of the community.

He alluded to the bill, and not to the manufacturers [Mr. SMITH said that he intended nothing personal.

who were known to him, had formerly been merchants, Mr. SILSBEE resumed: Some of the manufacturers, had become manufacturers. The names of many such who, finding they could no longer import to advantage, were attached to the memorials upon the table. They had no design to put a trick upon Congress, even were they mistaken in their views. He felt surprise at some of the remarks of the gentleman from Maryland, when that gentleman knew many of the names upon the memorials. The bill had been fully acted on in the other House; and he presumed that the Chairman of the Committee on Manufactures would explain the views in its favor, if the Senate gave him an opportunity. He hoped the bill would be made the special order of the day for to-morrow. gentleman, however well he might use the latter, Mr. S. did not think the former were in danger. As to the teeth or tongue of the

Mr. SMITH, of Maryland, said, that the gentleman from Ohio had complimented him, by observing that he was always ready to act upon any subject. He would allow that he was always ready to act upon bills reported by himself. But, in this case, he was certainly unprepared. It had been said, that this bill did not affect all articles of yielded the floor, had allowed that he was somewhat led Mr. SILSBEE believed the gentleman, who had just Woollens: this was true; but it was no recommendation away by his feelings. to the bill, which really ought to be called a bill to tax the by this bill upon the merchants. He could assure the poor for the benefit of the rich. The rich had their broad-gentleman that the manufacturers with whom he was He had said that a trick was put cloth with no addition of duty, while the poor man was to acquainted were, many of them, high-minded, honorable be taxed beyond sufferance for the articles required by men, who would be the last men to stoop to a trick to him. He had the satisfaction to know, that the result favor their interests. which he had predicted on the passage of the bill of 1824, had taken place; that the measure had a two-fold effect, and had, in some measure, cut the throats of the Manufac-individually.] turers themselves. This bill, to advance the interests of the Manufacturers, was now crowded upon the Senate, at the expense of every other measure. the settlement of the Colonial trade was to be pushed Even the bill for aside to give place for this bill upon a single article in the Tariff. The gentleman from Ohio said, that the bill had been discussed in the other House; but he, [Mr. S.] had been otherwise employed than to listen to those debates. The matter came now fresh before him, and he wished to investigate it thoroughly before he gave his vote upon it. The other House acted deliberately, and with information before them. There was no such management there to push through this bill for the benefit of one class of People to the prejudice of others—and that one was the only class in the whole country who were doing a prosperous business: for, while the Manufacturers were dividing twelve per cent. on their capital, no other class could make six. Nothing would serve them, however, after all that had been done for them, but a prohibition. We have given them our teeth, and now they ask for our tongues. No concession would satisfy them until they were allowed to put their hands into the pockets of the other classes, to serve their own views. What Congress gave them in 1824, has only emboldened them to make louder claims.mittee on Manufactures had alluded to a gentleman who Mr. HAYNE observed, that the Chairman of the ComYes, I repeat, they are the only class whose pursuits are profitable. The merchant is failing; his cargoes will not here to explain his own conduct. was no longer a member of the Senate, and who was not pay their cost; the farmers are poor and depressed; but LLOYD, of Massachusetts. And Mr. H. now rose to rescue these classes must be loaded heavier still for the good of his name from the uses to which it had been applied. On He referred to Mr. the Manufacturers. By this bill, all the different me- the tariff question, his conduct had been able and manly, chanics were taxed for the benefit of the Manufacturers. and the People of the South owed him a lasting debt of The gentleman on the other side had said, that he, [Mr. gratitude for the firmness and zeal of his opposition to the S.] was opposed to the bill. So far, he certainly did think tariff bill of 1824. As the Chairman of the Committee on that its effects would be bad. What then? It was the Manufactures had not correctly stated the course pursued opinion of one gentleman, or one Senator only, and no by that gentleman, [Mr. LLOYD] he would explain it. one was bound to subscribe to it. When the Tariff of When the tariff bill was before that committee, of which 1824 was under consideration, I differed with other gen- he was a member, he opposed the course taken by the demen. I thought it would increase the revenue, and its majority; but, finding his opinions spurned at and operation would be simply a tax, a severe tax, on the neglected, he folded his arms, and sat in silence at their People. But this bill must operate as a prohibition to deliberations. He afterwards came into the Senate, and many articles, and of course be highly injurious to the advocated the reference of the bill to the Finance Con It was a mere trick, to catch the unsuspecting mittee; but that endeavor was overruled. Mr. H. hoped. merchant; or why was its operation to begin on the first the name of the gentleman from Massachusetts would not of August, when the merchant, who has already ordered again be misapplied, or his conduct misrepresented. As. goods, would be caught, and be forced to pay the duty on to the manufacturers, he felt no personal enmity to them; goods which he never would have ordered, had he been but, when a bill was to be discussed, which would auaware of the passage of this bill? It was also a delusion thorize them to take from the pocket of the other classes in point of revenue. It would increase the revenue this to fill their own-which was to fix upon the South a bur year; but next year there would be an enormous falling densome and disproportionate tax-he felt it his duty to off, because there would be no importation--a failing of speak, as a citizen, and as a legislator; and to express he did not doubt beyond the million and a half computed aloud his opinion of the measures and effects of the bill. by the New York Chamber of Commerce. He believed In doing this, he placed individuals entirely out of sight; VOL. III.-26

revenue.

ed to attribute no trick to the manufacturers, but to the Mr. SMITH, of Maryland, explained, that he intendoperation of the bill, which was to go into effect on the first of August, when the merchants must inevitably suffer by it.