FER. 15, 1827.]

Gradual Improvement of the Navy.

[SENATE.

would abide the test of the severest scrutiny. The Chair-mouth has not witnessed a single hour when vessels could man had said, that these two Docks were to be built as not approach or leave the smallest wharves. In a period 27 experiment, as well as for permanent use. The first of war especially, this circumstance gives a controlling consideration, then, especially when viewed as an experi- preference of Portsmouth over every naval depot North ment, is the expense of a Dock at Portsmouth, when of the Chesapeake. Nor is the proximity of Portsmouth compared with the expense at other places. By the re- to Halifax, one of the great maritime stations of England port of the Engineer, which has been laid this session on in the Northern part of our continent, to be overlooked. your table, it appears that the whole aggregate expense The facilities for ingress, when our Navy should be cripof a Dock at Portsmouth, is $7,293 less than at Charles- pled, on returning home, in Winter; and for egress, to town, and $39,545 less than at Brooklyn. Gentlemen, watch the enemy's American coast and depots, or for other of local knowledge, think that the difference would in more distant objects, are, from these circumstances, unfact be still greater, because the Engineer, from his birth rivalled. Nature herself had pointed out this pre-emiand residence in Massachusetts, probably knew better nence long before the building of a single vessel of war the prices of materials, labor, &c. there than in New had ever been attempted at Charlestown, or dreamed of. Hampshire. Thus, for example, the single article of Many years previous to our Revolution, the British made stone, a very important one in the whole estimate, is cal- Portsmouth a place of resort for their ships of war and for culated to be as cheap at Charlestown as at Portsmouth ship building, on an extensive scale. During the Revowhen every person from the last State knows, that stone lution the same natural advantages caused it to be freis a considerable article of export from New Hampshire to quented by our public vessels, and those of our French Massachusetts; that New Hampshire has emphatically allies-both for repairs and safety. From this very port, been called the granite State, and that her rocks are in where one of his gallant officers still survives, Paul Jones many places her riches. What is still stronger, in this himself sailed on his glorious expedition in the Ranger; instance, Portsmouth is charged, in the estimate, with and the first 74 ever built in the United States was conmore than $18,000 above Charlestown, for excavation, structed there, under the direction of our Revolutionary chiefly in a ledge of rock. Cannot much of this rock be Congress. He trusted, then, that, from these and other used in the dock, and without any cost for it whatever? considerations, which it might be now fatiguing to the The expense of masonry at the former, is also estimated Senate to hear, we should, at this time, feel disposed to more than $ 12,000 above the latter. But it is not neces- exercise that power, in selecting the sites for Dock Yards, sary to detain the Senate with further impressions about which we, doubtless, possessed; which it was usual, as the misapprehension in these particulars. If the two well as competent, for us to exercise in similar cases; and places, on these two last subjects, were considered equal which, if we did exercise, he never could for a moment in expense, and the other estimates deemed correct, the doubt, would designate Portsmouth, whether for experie cheapness of Portsmouth over Charlestown, would exceed ment or permanent utility, as the most eligible site on the $36,000, or more than 1-10th of the whole cost. If we whole Atlantic frontier. bok a little to details, a similar preference in point of economy still exists in favor of Portsmouth. Many articles in the rations are lower, and some full twenty per cent. lower. In the very report before you, the labor of carpenters is only $1 50 at Portsmouth, to $1 58 per day; at Charlestown, of masons, $1 75 to $2; of splitters and hammerers, $1 to $1.25, or a difference of 1-5th; of common laborers, 80 to 96 cents; large oak timber, per ton, also at Portsmouth at $15, and at Charlestown 18; pine timber $ 5 50 at one, and $6 at the other, &c. and bricks $4 75 at one, and $5 75 at the other. A few articles may cost less at Charlestown, he admitted; but, without further particulars on this point, it must be obvious, that, in point of economy, in making this experiment of a Dry Dock, there is a most decided advantage in selecting Portsmouth; and that, as a permanent site, for repairing vessels, &c. which is the paramount, if not sole object of the Dock, the whole labor, materials, and rations, there, will cost the country somewhere from ten to twenty per cent. less than at any other naval station. Mr. NOBLE resumed. He was much indebted to the As a permanent site for a dock, Portsmouth has still other gentleman from New Hampshire. It made no great difand great advantages. One of these is the facility of de-ference which Charleston was meant, as it did not change fence at that place against any attack by water. The the idea he [Mr. N.] had formed of the vehemence with Navy Yard lies something like two miles from the Ocean, which the gentleman had upheld the merits of Portsmouth, and can be approached by water only on a narrow river, For his own part, he looked with a favorable eye upon in most places of less than half a mile in width, and com- this bill; not because he was to reap any peculiar advan manded by bluffs suitable for batteries and forts, at va- tages from it, but because the wise people of the present nous intervening points. It is guarded also against an generation were now returning, and he was glad to see approach by land, from its situation on an Island, and ait, to the good old-fashioned John Adams system of na dense population in the neighborhood. Another advan- tional defence. He would not now stop to inquire who tage is the easy entrance and departure of vessels of all had formerly cast so much reproach and ridicule upon it, sizes, and at all seasons. The water adjoining the wharves nor would he say what fanciful gun-boat systems had inis fifty or sixty feet in depth, and, within the memory of tervened. Let them all pass-they were only worth reman, has never been frozen over in the manner of Boston membering for the sake of the lesson that was to be learnt harbor this very Winter. The latter harbor, from the from them. In going back to former times, he might have Navy Yard at Charlestown, down to the fort and light asked what new terror had made gentlemen afraid to trust house, it is understood here, has, for ten or twelve days, the President? Afraid to trust the President-to do what? been perfectly bridged with ice, and the sailing of our Why, to do what belongs to his duty-to consult the offi public vessels actually delayed, while the harbor of Ports-cers about him, upon subjects which come directly under

VOL. III-25

Mr. NOBLE said, he was desirous of retaining the fourth section as it was. He had no objection to allowing the President to locate the dry docks at whatever point should seem best, whether Charleston, South Ca rolina, or Portsmouth, was not of moment, so the best position was chosen. The gentleman from New Hampshire had been very eloquent in supporting the claims of Portsmouth, and had made use of some arguments which appeared to Mr. N. rather curious. He had said that the harbor of Porsmouth was not usually frozen over, while that of Charleston was often obstructed by ice. This ap peared to Mr. N. to be forcing the elements into the ser vice of his favorite town; for he [Mr. N.] was sure that no one ever discovered, this fact, until it was this morning disclosed to the Senate.

Mr. WOODBURY rose to set the gentleman right as to Charlestown-the town of that name, in Massachusetts, was alluded to in his remarks, not Charleston, South Carolina.

SENATE.]

Gradual Improvement of the Navy.

[FEB. 15, 1827.

their observation, and make a decision from the advice he Charlestown, where no fortification would be needed, in may obtain! He did not see what this fear could arise addition to that already there. Some of the materials might from, and it was a new subject of apprehension. Perhaps be obtained cheaper at Portsmouth; but others again, not there was some other motive-perhaps the power of the as cheap, as at Charlestown. Rations could, on the whole, President was really not so frightful to the Senator from be obtained as cheap at Charlestown as at Portsmouth; New Hampshire, as might be inferred from his speech. and building stone, of which the gentleman had said so Portsmouth, with him, seemed the great and only theme. much, was as plenty in some parts of Massachusetts, as in He had no thought for the Executive authority, only as New Hampshire. These were the views of Mr. S. and, it might affect Portsmouth. As the circumference was from them, without undertaking to settle the question, he to the centre, so were his arguments all concentrated in thought it would be far better to leave the decision to Portsmouth. It had pleased some of the Atlantic gentle-persons at once impartial, and more competent to judge between the advantages of the two places.

Mr. WOODBURY moved the reading of the memorial of the citizens of Portsmouth, on this subject; which was read.

men, not long since, to say that the People of the West were immodest in their demands upon Congress. But, Mr. WOODBURY said, that the fortifications at Portssuppose the interests of the West be compared with those mouth were now equally capable of affording defence as of the East I say, [said Mr. N.] that your commerce has those of Charlestown. He had only spoken of any ultecost the country more blood and treasure than all the other rior means of defence which it might be found necessary interests of the nation put together. Well, sir; we, of the to apply. But this was only a question of temporary exWest, have voted for it-through thick and thin we have pense. The difference in the prices of building and mavoted to sustain the interests of commerce: and our re-terials was permanent. ward is, to be told that we are rapacious in our demands Mr. SILSBEE replied, that he was not aware of the for assistance. We are willing to be tried by our votes; difference in these respects. He had procured ships built and it will be found that we have not been illiberal in our at both places, and never noticed it. From his own exendeavors to assist the other portions of the country. Gen-perience, he was very much inclined to doubt whether it tlemen, it seems, are afraid to trust the President. I should really existed. like to know on what ground. Do they believe he has any personal interest in the location of a dry dock? Or, if he had, that he would allow it to interfere with the discharge of his public duty? I do not intend to ask whether any of the gentlemen who entertain these fears, combine private interest with the arguments they make use of. I do not mean to say that the gentleman from New Hampshire has any kind of interest in locating one of the dry | docks at Portsmouth. But Portsmouth is the place; and there is no other like it in the country, if we believe his story. Portsmouth is the place chosen by nature; it is a kind of sacrilege to say any thing against this holy city, where water stands the frost without becoming frozen, and which has every superiority over Charlestown! But gentlemen are afraid to trust to the President, for fear he should be blind to all these advantages; which would be a great misfortune to the whole country. I am glad [said Mr. N, in conclusion,] that our statesmen have at last come back to the Naval policy of John Adams, notwithstanding the manner in which it has been traduced; and now they had done so, he hoped they would stick to it: for wisdom late found, was better than none. He rejoiced to see men of intelligence come out in support of the Navy, which he looked upon as the right arm of the country. He hoped its interests and welfare would be attended to, steadily and permanently; and then, if war came, the country would know where to look for defence.

Mr. SILSBEE said, he saw nothing in the memorial that related to the prices of materials, &c. But there were three essential errors, which he thought it his duty to notice. In the first place, it was said that the Navy Yard at Portsmouth was the only one along side of which a ship of the line could lay afloat. This was not the case: for this could be done at Charlestown. It said that Portsmouth was the only place that could not be blockaded. This he did not credit. In his opinion, it could be blockaded much easier than many other harbors. The other statement was, that the Navy Yard at Portsmouth cost much less than any other in the country; which was equally an error. He had no objection to Portsmouth, or its prosperity; but when such statements were made, he felt bound to dispute them.

Mr. WOODBURY, in reply, observed, that the memorial was signed by individuals not likely to make assertions which they could not substantiate, or without know. ing them to be true. The declarations made by the me morial were unfairly stated by the gentleman from Massachusetts. The statement was only that Portsmouth was the only place where vessels of the largest size could lay in safety, and go to sea at low-water mark. The difference in the prices could not be controverted.

Mr. HARRISON moved the division of the question, and that the vote be first taken on locating a dry dock at Gosport, in Virginia-when the gentlemen from the North would be left to fix upon the other site as they could agree among themselves.

man from Indiana; as he had expressed no fears of the exercise of the powers of the Executive in the location of the dry docks. His motion to amend had been dictated by motives of an entirely different nature.

Mr. SILSBEE observed, that he had nothing to object to the demeanor of the Senator from New Hampshire, who had doubtless argued from his convictions. He had said it was as well that the location of the dry docks should be made by Congress, as that navy yards should be so located. Mr. S. differed from him entirely on this point. In Mr. WOODBURY remarked, that he was very sorry to the case of a navy yard, the information was easily obtain-perceive that he had been misunderstood by the gentleed through the Department. As to the dry docks contemplated, nothing was known but from the report, as to the comparative expense. The officers had examined both Charlestown and Portsmouth, and would be able to give all the information requisite for forming the decision of the Executive. If the matter was left to Congress, the location would be made according to the statements of gentlemen, who could hardly be considered altogether disinterested. For, if the statement of advantages by Senators was to decide the location, a gentleman from New York might contend for equal advantages at that port. For his own part, Mr. S. considered Charlestown equal, on every consideration, to Portsmouth. The gentleman had said, that little fortification would be required at Portsmouth-this was of more forcible application to

Mr. SMITH, of Maryland, said, that he had not been at fault in his anticipation of difficulty upon this question; and he must say, he wished the section to stand as it at present did.

Mr. HAYNE made a few remarks upon the location of the Dry Docks, on which he observed that the Committee could only agree that there should be one on the North and another at the South of the Potomac. Gosport only had been mentioned at the South; but the Committee found difficulty in deciding on the site North of the Potomac; it was, therefore, thought expedient to leave the

location to the discretion of the President. The details of the bill were left open to future enactments of Congress. The appropriation was the most essential point at present, and he thought it better to go on and establish the principal object of the bill, leaving the details to be arranged hereafter.

Mr. JOHNSTON, of Louisiana, considered that the design of the bill was acknowledged as the settled policy of the country. But if the Senate were to discuss every local point, it would never be passed; as the local interests of the members would interpose to create discussion and delay beyond any needful extent. He instanced the case of the Western Armory, the site of which had not been fixed on to this day, although it had been under consider ation for two or three years, and he thought it likely the same cause would yet delay the location for several years. For himself, after all he had read and heard from the two gentlemen from Massachusetts and New Hampshire, he could not decide where the Dry Dock at the North ought to be situated, and he thought it far better to retain the section as it was, leaving the matter to be decided upon by the President.

Mr. MACON remarked, that the best way of deciding the matter was by a vote. The case in question was similar to the discussions on the location of post roads, and he thought that, if they had voted upon it instead of having debated upon it, the matter might have been got over smoothly enough. He recollected an instance where three officers were appointed to make examinations of sites for a naval depot, and had disagreed, each preferring a different place, and it had never been decided yet. They had already discussed the matter sufficiently for six or seven bills, and he hoped it would now be set at rest by voting upon it.

The question on striking out the latter portion of the 4th section [to give place to Mr. WOODBURY'S amendment] being taken, the motion was rejected.

Mr. RUGGLES suggested that the 2d section of the bill was unnecessary, the provision contained in it, in relation to the preservation of live oak, being already in force by a law of 1820, which authorized the President to instruct surveyors to reserve lands on which live oak and red cedar grew, and fixing penalties for their destruction or transportation. This he thought was an ample provision for the purpose.

Mr. HAYNE said, that, in the old law, no fund was pro vided to carry the provisions into effect. As far as this law contradicted other laws, it would operate to repeal them; but, in one respect, it did not go so far as the laws of 1816 and 1820-as it did not take red cedar into consideration.

Mr. CHAMBERS thought that the law alluded to by the gentleman from Ohio, went no farther than for a limited object.

Mr. RUGGLES said, that he had only thrown out the suggestion; but should make no motion.

No further amendment being offered, and the bill being about to be reported to the Senate

Mr. SMITH, of South Carolina, said he could not vote for the whole of the bill at this time. He wished to have that portion relating to a Naval Academy struck out. The subject to him was a new one, and it would be attended with expense, of the extent of which they were not yet aware. He thought the Senate should have more information on this subject before it acted. If this portion was stricken out, and time allowed to investigate the subject, he would vote for the bill. Ile, therefore, moved to strike out the 7th, 8th, 9th, 10th, and 11th, sections.

Mr. HAYNE said that he would give his colleague all the information in his power on the subject. The proposition in relation to a Naval School, was not a new one. It

[SENATE.

had been acted upon during the last session, had been recommended by the Executive the session before, and had also been most fully discussed. As to the expense, infor mation was last year requested of the Secretary of the Navy, who had given an estimate, which it was supposed was as accurate as any computation upon the subject could be made. That estimate gave, as the probable cost of the establishment of the School, 30,000 dollars. The permanent expense of the establishment was computed at a much smaller sum than that required for the support of the Military Academy. Many of the Professors of the Naval School, it was proposed to select from the officers of the Navy, already in the pay of the Government; so that the charge for professorships would be comparatively small. The pupils were not expected to be as numerous as those at the Military Academy; and it was also to be taken into consideration that the sloop of war to be attached to the School, was not to be specially appointed for that purpose, but was to be one stationed on the coast, on actual service; consequently, the midshipmen and officers, while employed on board, would take the place of others, and thus be no extra expense, as the same number of officers must be employed, whether there was a school or not. On the whole, he thought the annual expense of the Academy would not go beyond a few thousand dollars. He had said thus much for the information of his colleague. If, after all, he should not be satisfied, Mr. H. could only say that he should regret it.

Mr. FINDLAY made a few remarks. He was understood to say, in substance, that he was in favor of all the provisions of the bill with the exception of that which related to a Naval Academy, for which he considered that there was no necessity.

Mr. JOHNSTON, of Louisiana, said, that he presumed the gentleman from South Carolina [Mr. SMITH] did not take into consideration that the midshipmen had their rations and pay already, which would be so much to subtract from the annual expenditure upon the Academy. He believed, from the computations he had seen made, that the annual expense would not exceed six thousand dollars, as the supply of books, &c. and the payment of those scientific professors, necessary for the establishment, would make the largest items of that sum. The reason of the great expense of the Military Academy was, that the pay and rations of the cadets was included in the amount-but the midshipmen already received their pay and rations, so that these would not enter into the charge.

Mr. HAYNE further observed, that it was not supposed that the School would be, by any means, an expen

sive one.

The question on the motion of Mr. SMITH was then taken, and decided in the negative, 19 to 21.

Mr. CHAMBERS then moved further to amend the bill by adding a clause to the 10th section, to authorize the President to purchase five acres of land for a site for the Academy. In support of this amendment, Mr. C. observed, that the bill as it was, contained no provision for establishing the Academy at another place than a public station; and it might be found more proper to locate the School on some spot not now belonging to the General Government. He therefore made this motion to enable the President to locate the Academy in the most eligible position.

Mr. HOLMES suggested, whether the gentleman from Maryland would not improve the amendment, by adding an instruction to the President to obtain the cession from the State in which the site might be fixed, of jurisdiction over it.

Mr. HAYNE said, there was another objection to the amendment. It made it imperative on the President to purchase the site, and would thus put it out of his power

Gradual Improvement of the Navy:-Ohio Turnpike.

The Ohio Turnpike.

of Ohio, to make the portion of the road running through their property. The only aid asked of the United States was, to make the road through that portion of the land belonging to the United States.

Mr. CHANDLER observed, that, if Congress must go into this speculation, they ought to do it with their eyes open. At present, it was not known how large was the capital stock, how much had been subscribed for, or how much Congress was to be asked to subscribe. He thought, on these points, they wanted information before they acted.

Mr. HARRISON said, the road in question went forty miles through the lands of the United States, and it was considered that some aid might reasonably be expected from Congress. He would ask the gentleman from Maine, if he would not, were the lands his own, feel interested to make a road through them? It was calculated that the portion of public land to be subscribed by Congress, would make the road through the portion of terntory belonging to the United States.