part filled in by steam which helps to fill in gaps and reduces the amount which must be transmitted long distances; and the whole loss in the transmission is not great.

Mr. FURLOW. Without taking into consideration the interchange, because we have not been considering that at all up to the present time, what would be the total horsepower, primary and secondary power, developed under the proposed plan-that is the old planand what would be the primary and secondary power developed under the new plan? What regulation would there be there?

Major COINER. This is with Cove Creek in?

Mr. FURLOW. Yes.

Major COINER. With Cove Creek in, the Wilson Dam primary would be increased from, we will say, in round numbers, 70,000 kilowatts, to slightly over 100,000 kilowatts; about 105,000 kilowatts, probably.

Mr. FURLOW. And that, in terms of horsepower, would be 25 per cent more?

Major COINER. About one-third more.

Mr. JAMES. Now suppose you should take these 11 dams, includCove Creek, Clinton, and Melton Hill and Senator Dams, plus Dams Nos. 2 and 3, how much will you have, primary horsepower?

Major COINER. Of the entire proposed Tennessee and Clinch systems?

Mr. JAMES. That is the 11 dams, and including these I have named. Major COINER. You mean the 11 dams for which applications have been made to the Federal Power Commission?

Mr. JAMES. And that have been approved by the Federal Power Commission. Take those 11 dams, plus Dams Nos. 2 and 3. Major COINER. I should have to pick those out, Mr. Chairman. Mr. JAMES. Call them off, so that we can have them.

Major WATKINS. These 11 dams all along the river, do you mean? Mr. JAMES. Yes; these that Major Fiske and everybody else from that time down has approved, that have been approved by the Federal Power Commission and by the Tennessee Power Development Co., and that have been approved all the way up the line.

Major WATKINS. I have not got those separate. I have separate data on each of those projects, when used with the Clinch system. With that system, I can tell you the whole; and I can pick out each of the other projects.

Mr. JAMES. How much does it amount to?

Major COINER (after making calculation). It is about 635,000 horsepower primary power for the 11 projects, with No. 2 and No. 3. Mr. JAMES. According to a study made by the East Tennessee Development Co.-and they were basing their statement upon studies made by Maj. H. E. Fiske of the United States Army-before the Muscle Shoals inquiry, there would be 600,000 horsepower developed from the operation of these 11 dam projects desired by the East Tennessee Development Co., and Dams Nos. 2 and 3. I wish you would put in the record what Mr. Bell was asking for under this bill. He is asking Dams Nos. 2 and 3 and Cove Creek Dam, plus the Melton Hill, Senator, and Clinton. I wish you would put in how much horsepower you would have under this. He is only asking for these out of the 11. According to the figures you give now and the evidence that I have read to you which was given out before the joint

inquiry, by the president of the company, which is paying for these dams, all this increase of money on Dams Nos. 2 and 3 is only going to give them about 13,000 horsepower more; is that true? Major COINER. On this particular layout?

Mr. JAMES. Yes.

Major COINER. That appears to be correct. However, Mr. Chairman, it would appear, if I may express an opinion, inadvisable to permit this bidder, or anyone else, to build permanent structures in the Tennessee River which presumably will be in there for two or three generations when built, unless those structures fit into the best economic development of the system as a whole. You need not put in all the power units, but when a dam is built, it ought to be built of a size that is going to fit the ultimate development, and not ruin the site so that the ultimate development never can go through and everybody is barred effectually from getting the economic result on that river.

Mr. JAMES. That is not what I am getting at. In 1926, when I was on the joint committee, these figures were made by the Corps of Engineers-600,000. Now it is 635,000 horsepower; and a million dollars spent on Dam No. 2 and millions of dollars on Dam No. 3, and you are only going to get 35,000 at those dams.

Major COINER. That is 35,000 horsepower for run-of-river primary; but with the increase in power brought about by storage, and development of the power in the entire system, that becomes vastly greater.

Mr. JAMES. How much greater?

Major COINER. For instance, as indicative, we would have to go through another set of figures to give the figures on this particular thing, but I have before me a series of different projects; not all these same ones, but it gives comparison of the run-of-river horsepower on the few projects that I have here. The total is 270,000 horsepower from run of river. With the stream flow regulation that becomes 681,000 horsepower. With stream and interchange of power, it becomes 1,058,000 horsepower. You started out with 270,000 run of river. That is practically multiplying it by four; so that you can see the possibilities of a development which takes into account all the advantage that you can get from these various interchanges. Mr. JAMES. How high are you figuring on Cove Creek Dam now? Major COINER. Two hundred and twenty feet.

Mr. JAMES. That is just what Major Fiske recommended in 1926. There is no change now from what it was figured when we had the joint commission, when Major Fiske recommended at that time that it be made 220,000; is that true?

Major COINER. That is correct.

Mr. JAMES. Did you read the speech Senator Norris made in the Senate the other day?

Major COINER. I read the speech that he made, I think it was on the 23d.

Mr. JAMES. He was speaking on two days. How do those figures that he gave compare with what you now have?

Major COINER. My recollection is that Senator Norris in his speech stated that Cove Creek would, through stream regulation, double the output at Dam No. 2.

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Mr. JAMES. I mean where he ran it up to about a million and a half. He did that, did he not?

Mr. HOFFMAN. I do not have that here, Mr. James, but I think it

Mr. JAMES. May I interrupt you a minute?

Mr. HOFFMAN. Yes.

Mr. JAMES. Major Coiner, I wish you would put in the record what Senator Norris has said on one side, and then on the other side, right opposite, what your figures are, and state on what you base them, so that we will have that. I wish you would go through what passed in the Senate on those days when Senator Norris was speaking, so that we will know whether his figures were 1,500,000 or 2,000,000 as he talks about.

Major COINER. That is, wherever Senator Norris uses figures and makes a statement, they give what we think those figures should be? Mr. JAMES. Yes.

Mr. WRIGHT. We want the facts. You want what he says, and then you want the facts.

Mr. HOFFMAN. What you want to bring out is here, I think. Mr. Bell, in the second day of our session, here, discussed the statement that Senator Norris made when he reached 1,250,000 horsepower as the total hydroelectric proposition that was to be handed to the leasing corporation. Mr. Bell said that Senator Norris took the whole capacity at Muscle Shoals, he took a total installation of 600,000 at Dam No. 2, and to that he added the installed capacity proposed for Dam No. 3 at 250,000, which gets us up to 850,000, and then he took the total installed capacity for Cove Creek at 200,000, bringing it up to 1,050,000, and he then took 100,000, the total capacity proposed for three dams at Melton Hill, Clinton, and Senator, which ran it up to 1,150,000.

Then Mr. Bell said he threw in another 100,000 for good measure. Later Mr. Bell said his figures were

that we had now worked the thing up to where our estimate of power, including the steam plant, is 340,000 horsepower. The steam plant will thereby be used to build up the secondary power, so that really with steam and water you have 340,000 horsepower, and that means all the rest of the secondary power that is left is six months or less.

What we are trying to get at is the estimate of the engineers in between Mr. Bell's estimate of only 340,000 and Senator Norris's estimate of 1,350,000 horsepower.

Mr. JAMES. In other words, we want the facts and not figures. Mr. HOFFMAN. There is such a great variance there. He says we are giving them a 340,000-horsepower proposition. Senator Norris says we are giving them a 1,250,000-horsepower proposition. I would like to know, as a new man on the committee, just what the actual hydroelectric power is.

Major COINER. Those figures of Mr. Bell were for all the Clinch River; that is, the Cover Creek

Mr. HOFFMAN. He says all of the power that they ultimately could get that would be utilized for their purposes would be 340,000 horsepower; that all the rest would be secondary, less than six months

a year.

(Thereupon, at 12.45 o'clock p. m., the committee adjourned until to-morrow, Wednesday, February 29, 1928, at 10 o'clock a. m.)

COMPARISON OF STATEMENTS MADE BY SENATOR NORRIS IN SPEECH IN SENATE ON FEBRUARY 23 AND 24, 1928, WITH DATA COMPILED BY UNITED STATES ENGINEER DEPARTMENT