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remembering that most of this basic research support goes to universities and, therefore, is tied in with the higher education process. Now, I do not mean that this should go on into a spiraling thing because we do not need a situation in which you develop more good people and all go back into the universities to make more good people that go back into the universities, and so forth. The situation, as I see it, is what we very badly need is to increase the quality or, let us say, the numbers of high-quality scientists and engineers.

TYPES OF SCIENTIFIC PERSONNEL NEEDED

I am not convinced that we need more routine engineers or more routine scientists. But I am convinced that we need more welltrained, highly qualified ones. For example, I am very much convinced that we must have a far larger fraction of our engineers go to graduate school than we now have and, of course, this is the type of activity we are interested in.

Dr. BRONK. Wouldn't you also say that one of our greatest concerns has been to develop more centers of excellence in universities throughout the country so that we do not have pockets of excellence and pockets of nonexcellence?

Dr. HAWORTH. I am coming to that later, but I think we must have adequate research support for the good people and, at the present time, we do not have enough good people.

Now, if it ever gets into a surplus of people I could no longer make the statement. But I do not think we are anywhere near that; to me that is the measure at the present time, and we are a long way from it.

Now, with respect to the Science Foundation in this picture

PERCENTAGES OF SCIENTISTS, 1954–64

Senator MAGNUSON. Will somebody put in the record after all these years what is the percentage of scientists now existing in the United States as compared to 10 years ago? I suppose you would have to get people with certain degrees, wouldn't you; that would be the only criteria you have.

Dr. HAWORTH. I will be glad to provide that information for the record.

(The information referred to follows:)

800

NUMBER OF SCIENTISTS AND ENGINEERS, 1940-1963 WITH PERCENT OF LABOR FORCE

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1.1%

DOCTORAL SCIENTISTS

AND ENGINEERS

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'63 1965

SOURCE:

National Science Foundation

=% OF LABOR FORCE

1970

Population, labor force, scientists, engineers, and technicians, 1940–63

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Senator MAGNUSON. Well, supposing 10 years ago there were x number of lawyers and doctors coming out, and how many engineers and scientists have we developed percentagewise through, partially through, this program and other programs.

Dr. HAWORTH. I think it would be

Senator MAGNUSON. How much has it gone up? Is it too great? I remember Dr. Bronk and I one time were up in his shop and we had a long hour show on whether we were developing too many. This was

the discussion.

Dr. HAWORTH. It would be quite

Senator MAGNUSON. As compared to the percentage of necessary good people in other lines of endeavor, whether this was getting out of kilter and, I think, I suppose, the only way you could get figures would be through the number who hold scientific degrees.

Dr. BRONK. I remember that procedure.

Senator MAGNUSON. And add a cushion to quite a few, too, that you could gage that percentagewise that actually do not hold degrees, but they might be good scientists.

Dr. HAWORTH. Well, it would be relatively easy for us, in fact no job at all, to say this in terms of what is happening now, in terms of how many of the people getting all kinds of degrees, are getting degrees in science. It would be fairly easy for us to add that up for the last several years. But to go back and say how many people are there in practice of all the professions, for example, and the ratio of scientists to all the professions would be somewhat difficult.

DEFINITION OF SCIENTISTS

Senator MAGNUSON. I suppose you have to define what is a scientist first, and that is a little difficult these days.

Dr. HAWORTH. Yes.

For example, how many of the people who have taken degrees in science are now practicing science or how many people indeed, who have taken degrees in law are now practicing law.

Senator MAGNUSON. What we are worrying about up here always is are we getting topheavy with too many people, not with too many good people but too many people in this field, engineers, scientists, and technicians.

There has been a suggestion made that if this keeps going they will take over the country and, of course, that is an extreme suggestion, I understand that, but there are a lot of people who believe that. Dr. HAWORTH. The law of supply and demand will take care of that in time.

Senator MAGNUSON. I know we have gone up, but I never did see the figures.

Dr. HAWORTH. We will be glad to furnish any degree of figures that you want. We have lots of them.

Senator MAGNUSON. Excuse me.

That is what bothers me.

(The information referred to follows:)

A COMPARISON OF CHANGES IN THE RELATIVE INCIDENCE OF DEGREE CONFERRALS IN MAJOR FIELDS SINCE 1950

A statistical table containing data on "Baccalaureate Degrees Conferred in the United States, by Major Fields, Percentages, and Numbers: 1950 to 1963," and corresponding tables for conferrals at the master's and doctorate levels, provide the basis for the present discussion of changes in the relative incidence of degree conferrals by field.

There is at least a twofold warrant for showing (as is not customary) percentage data before quantities in the attached tables: first, the objective of this discussion is to describe changes in relative strengths among major fields; and, second, the year with which the tables begin (and the year in which the National Science Foundation began) is atypical in terms of numbers of (particularly baccalaureate) degrees. The actual numbers are shown principally as statistical support for the percentages.

This atypicalness resulted from the "bunching up," so to speak, in 1 year (1950) of degrees granted to students whose education had been deferred as a result, mainly, of World War II, and of degrees granted to students graduating with their classes. The record (up to that time) output of 434,000 baccalaureates was not again attained until the past academic year (451,000 in 1963). The intervening years witnessed a steady annual decline through 1955 (by which time the phenomenon of significant numbers of students graduating out of their class years was presumably "sifted out") and a subsequent steady annual increase through 1963 (reflecting larger age cohorts and a greater incidence of college-going-ness). The following discussion-in general terms without much citing of the statistics presented in the accompanying tables-will be devoted to a description of the proportion of degrees granted in the several fields in 1963 as compared with the immediate past and particularly with 1950. In general, it would appear that the nonscience fields have held their own in this period of apparent ascendancy of the science fields.

The "arts" have improved their position vis-a-vis the totality of fields particularly at the baccalaureate level, not inconsiderably at the master's level, and to a lesser extent at the doctorate level.

The "social sciences" have improved their position relative to the totality of fields at the baccalaureate level, although to a lesser extent than the arts. The situation at the advanced degree level is somewhat mixed: the social sciences accounted for essentially the same proportion of master's degrees in 1963 as in 1950, in each of the intervening years accounting for a lesser proportion; and they accounted for a slightly greater proportion of all doctorates in 1963 than in 1950, in each of the intervening years accounting for a higher proportion.

In the "physical sciences" (including engineering) there has been a decline in relative position (more pronounced in engineering) at the baccalaureate level from 1950 to 1963; and an increase at the master's. At the doctoral level, the relative position of the physical sciences is now slightly higher than in 1950; of engineering, considerably higher. At all levels, the situation in the intervening years was somewhat erratic.

The relative position of the "life sciences" (including the health professions) is lower in 1963 than in 1950 at all levels, with the intervening year at the baccalaureate and doctorate levels showing greater strength than the terminal years. The health professions show some advance at the baccalaureate level; and a decline at the advanced degree level, in consonance with life sciences in general. The situation in the professions of "education, "law," "theology," and "business and commerce" is somewhat mixed. "Education" accounted for a

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greater proportion of degrees at all levels in 1963 than in 1950, with the increase at the baccalaureate level being greater than that at the master's level, which, in turn, was greater than that at the doctorate level, at which level the increase was minimal.

"Law" accounted for a smaller proportion of degrees at all levels in 1963 than in 1950, the decline being greatest at the doctorate level, and least at the master's. "Theology" and "business and commerce" each accounted for essentially the same proportion of master's degrees in 1963 as in 1950. At the doctorate level, however, "theology" shows a considerable relative decline and "business and commerce" a considerable relative improvement. At the baccalaureate level, on the other hand, "theology" shows some increase and "business and commerce" some decline.

The foregoing discussion, couched in relative terms, should not obscure the fact that, by and large, there has been a considerable increase in degree output in terms of absolute numbers, at all levels, in scientific fields as well as in other fields, when 1963 is compared with 1950.

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