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Mr. MEYER. No, sir; we don't, and we think that in Wyoming, as is true with many other areas where there are so many more carriers than we can get around to, an additional staff is justified.

TRAVEL FUNDS

Senator ALLOTT. Well now, it is the same situation in a way, although it is on a different relationship, but getting back to the car service thing, Mr. Goff, you spoke about the transportation or travel shortage you had

in 1964 for field service. Mr. SCHMID. Travel money.

Mr. GOFF. Travel money-money for travel, is what you are talking about.

Senator ALLOTT. You had field service travel, and I am on page 1, you had $259,730, and in 1965, the 1965 budget which excludes reimbursements of $80,000 for 1964 fiscal year, and $175,000 for the 1965 year from the OÉP with relation to emergency preparedness functions, you got the same amount or you requested and got the same amount, $259,730.

Did you request more for these from the budget?

Mr. Schmid. You mentioned car service, and the figures you are citing is the travel money for motor carrier work.

Senator ALLOTT. All right. Will you give me the field, which one is that?

Mr. SCHMID. Drop down to safety and service here.

Senator Allott. Safety and service. The total safety and service then.

Mr. SCHMID. $115,000 both years, 1964 and 1965.
Senator ALLOTT. So you didn't increase it this year?

Mr. SCHMID. No; that is correct. But we requested increases from the Bureau of the Budget in travel moneys.

Senator ALLOTT. And the Bureau of the Budget did not give you these increases in this item ?

Mr. SCHMID. No. Do you want the figure we requested, Senator?
Senator ALLOTT. Yes.
Mr. Ryan. We requested for 1964 $148,600.

Senator Allott. Difference between $115,000 and $148,000. And this is an item that you feel is necessary in order to increase the car service?

Mr. SCHMID. This has definitely handicapped our work particularly in the last 6 months, Senator. We are very tight on travel money.

PRESENT STATUS OF WORK

Senator ALLOTT. Well, in other words, here we have this problem going into all the things that the chairman has mentioned and that we have discussed last year, discussed this year again, and the only thing which we seem to be able to do immediately is to increase the efficiency of the car service department, but your suggestion here, I understand you are not able to ask for $148,000 but you did ask for $148,000, and you are short $33,000 to bring this up to the point where you feel it should be.

Mr. SCHMID. That is correct.
Mr. GOFF. That is certainly correct.
Senator ALLOTT. That is all I have, Mr. Chairman.

AMOUNT OF UNLAWFUL MOTOR TRANSPORTATION

Senator MAGNUSON. On page 10 you talk about a road check that you made in three additional States, and you estimate that the unlawful motor transportation might represent $500 to $600 million annually in lost revenues to regulated carriers.

Have you any reason to revise that statement? Does it still hold good, I mean the amount !

Mr. GOFF. Mr. Myer, can you say anything further on that? He has charge of this field service.

Mr. MEYER. Well, actually this figure is nothing more than our best guess, of course.

Senator MAGNUSON. I understand that.

Mr. MEYER. We have no reason to think it is changed any or that it is likely to change.

Mr. GOFF. But it may increase?
Mr. MEYER, Correct.

Senator MAGNUSON. And as you attempt to enforce the regulations, the more you attempt to enforce it the more devious the schemes become to evade it, and the harder it is to find out these schemes; isn't that correct?

GROWTH IN MOTOR CARRIER POPULATION

Mr. MEYER. That is correct, and, of course, the additional motor carrier population known to us continues to grow.

Senator MAGNUSON. Yes.

Mr. MEYER. We are adding in the neighborhood of 9,000 private and exempt carriers every year that we had never heard of before, and, of course, those keep building up, and we just don't get around to them.

Senator MAGNUSON. All right.

EXAMPLE OF TRUOKING PROBLEMS

Senator ALLOTT. Would this be a fair example of the operations you are talking about? I don't know of anything recent, but I have known 8 or 10 years ago of people who came into eastern and southeastern Colorado with a truck. You have a long windrow of wheat, a hundred yards long, stacked up 10 or 12 feet high on the ground, maybe 20 or 30 feet across, and a farmer sells out of that pile to a trucker for cash. The truck is loaded—a pretty big truck sometimes—comes in at night and is loaded and by morning has gone somewhere down in Texas, and that is the last anybody ever hears of the truck except sometimes a fellow leaves a check, and then everybody is trying to collect the check. Is this the sort of operation you are talking about?

Mr. MEYER. Not insofar as unlawful transportation is concerned, because, of course, wheat doesn't require operating authority, or grain or any of the exempt commodities, but that is possibly one of the kind of carrier that we are adding every year—the ones that we are learning of—but I think that is the small number. The main ones are a shipper has decided to put on his own trucks in private carrier operation, or a trucker has decided to go to hauling exempt commodities one way and whatever he can get the other direction—that is the bulk of the additional carriers.

Mr. GoFF. What the Senator has given, though, is an example of this buy-and-sell business. If the fellow went through the motions of buying it from the farmer and then took it someplace and sold it at a profit the profit would be the difference that he got for the transportation. Mr. MEYER. That is the format; yes, sir. But the point I am making—this is an exempt commodity. Senator ALLOTT. This is a particular exempt commodity; that is Correct. Mr. MEYER. But in any other commodity the same thing would

happen.

Figtrious SHOPPING ASSOCIATION

Senator MAGNUson. One of the real problems are these so-called fictitious shopping associations. Mr. GoFF. That is one of the real problems also. Senator MAGNUson. That is one of the real problems in this field. Mr. GoFF. By the way, the General Counsel just nudged me to tell me that he just argued one of these buy-and-sell cases in the Supreme Court where we have taken it up there where the fellow was making his profit from transportation. He wasn’t in the grain business. He was selling transportation. Senator MAGNUsoN. Well; all right, then. Now, as soon as the House passes the bill when it is ready we will come back again and discuss more of the specifics on this matter, and Congressman Thomas told me last week that he thought he would be . to report his bill by May 10 and maybe get that on the floor the middle of May, so you can anticipate we can come back toward the end of May or the first part of June, but we hope to get this done this year by July 1 so that you can know what you are doing. Mr. GoFF. That will be very much appreciated. Discussion off the record.) enator MAGNUsoN. I do want to compliment you in taking this regulatory lag in the disposition of #. cases and getting it down to within some time limit and I think that is very good. Mr. GoFF. We worked very, very hard so— Discussion off the ...} enator MAGNUson. Put in the record the costs of the reporting. (The information referred to follows:)

CoSTS OF CONTRACT REPORTING

The Interstate Commerce Commission receives two copies of the transcript of each hearing without cost to the Commission. The present contract provides a charge to the public of $0.65 a page for regular copy. Information with respect to the number of copies sold is not furnished to the Commission. However, assuming a minimum of one copy of each hearing is sold, the cost incurred by the public would be $323,300.

Senator MAGNUson. We will adjourn. (Whereupon, at 10 a.m., Friday, May 1, 1964, the committee adjourned subject to call of the Chair.)

INDEPENDENT OFFICES APPROPRIATIONS FOR 1965

MONDAY, MAY 4, 1964

U.S. SENATE,
SUBCOMMITTEE OF THE COMMITTEE ON APPROPRIATIONS,

Washington, D.C. The subcommittee met, pursuant to recess, at 8:45 a.m. in room S-128, U.S. Capitol Building, Hon. Warren G. Magnuson (chairman) presiding.

Present: Senators Magnuson, Young of North Dakota, and Allott.

NATIONAL SCIENCE FOUNDATION

STATEMENT OF DR. LELAND J. HAWORTH, DIRECTOR, ACCOM

PANIED BY DR. DETLEV W. BRONK, CHAIRMAN OF THE NATIONAL SCIENCE BOARD AND PRESIDENT, THE ROCKEFELLER INSTITUTE, NEW YORK, N.Y.; DR. JOHN T. WILSON, DEPUTY DIRECTOR; DR. BOWEN C. DEES, ASSOCIATE DIRECTOR (PLANNING); DR. RANDAL M. ROBERTSON, ASSOCIATE DIRECTOR (RESEARCH); DR. HENRY W. RIECKEN, JR., ASSOCIATE DIRECTOR (SCIENTIFIC PERSONNEL AND EDUCATION) AND ACTING DIVISION DIRECTOR FOR SOCIAL SCIENCES; DR. GEOFFREY KELLER, DIVISION DIRECTOR FOR MATHEMATICAL, PHYSICAL, AND ENGINEERING SCIENCES; DR. HARVEY J. CARLSON, DIVISION DIRECTOR FOR BIOLOGICAL AND MEDICAL SCIENCES; DR. HOWARD E. PAGE, DIVISION DIRECTOR FOR INSTITUTIONAL PROGRAMS; GORDON LILL, MOHOLE PROJECT DIRECTOR; DR. BURTON W. ADKINSON, HEAD, OFFICE OF SCIENCE INFORMATION SERVICES; DR. JACOB PERLMAN, HEAD, OFFICE OF ECONOMIC AND MANPOWER STUDIES; DR. THOMAS 0. JONES, HEAD, OFFICE OF ANTARCTIC PROGRAMS; DR. ARTHUR ROE, HEAD, OFFICE OF INTERNATIONAL SCIENCE ACTIVITIES; AARON ROSENTHAL, COMPTROLLER; WILLIAM J. HOFF, GENERAL COUNSEL; JAMES KING, HEAD, OFFICE OF CONGRESSIONAL AND PUBLIC AFFAIRS; LUTHER F. SCHOEN, BUDGET OFFICER ; AND DR. HENRY DAVID, OFFICE OF SCIENCE RESOURCES PLANNING

APPROPRIATIONS, FISCAL YEAR 1964, ESTIMATES, FISCAL YEAR 1965
Senator MAGNUSON. The committee will come to order.
This morning we have the National Science Foundation.

Dr. Haworth is here, and Dr. Bronk is here, and other members of the staff.

Dr. Haworth has a reasonably short statement but, for the purposes of the record, your appropriation for 1964 was $353,200,000, for 1965

31-706-64—pt. 1

33

the budget estimates were $487,700,000, or an increase of $134.5 million, less $80,000 on a revised estimate.

STATEMENT OF THE DIRECTOR

We will be glad to hear from you and hear your statement, Doctor. Dr. HAworth. First, Mr. Chairman, I would like to tell you that this is the last time that Dr. Bronk will be with us. He is retiring from the Board. Senator MAGNUsoN. I was going to mention that a little later on. We are sorry to see him go. But he will be around, we will be calling on him. He is like a fire horse, you cannot keep him quiet too long, and when we need him we will call on him. Dr. HAworth. If I may, I would like to say on behalf of the Foundation that we regret this very much. Do you want me to proceed? Senator MAGNUson. Yes, go right ahead with your statement. Dr. HAworTH. Mr. Chairman, it is a pleasure to appear before this committee to discuss the Foundation's appropriation request for fiscal ear 1965. Present with me today are members of the staff of the ational Science Foundation and Dr. Detlev W. Bronk, Chairman of the National Science Board.

ROLE OF SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY TODAY

I believe it may help to place the Foundation's budget request in perspective if I start by discussing briefly what I believe to be the role of science and technology in the life of our country, the overall responsibilities of the Federal Government for promoting science and technology, and the proper role of the Foundation in helping to meet those responsibilities.

All of us recognize that over the past few decades the impact of science and technology upon our lives has increased almost immeasurably. In national defense they are vital. They are the essence of our space program. They are largely responsible for the rapid improvements in our living standards, from food, clothing, shelter, and other necessities to recreation, entertainment, and other luxuries. Our scientific and technological attainments play an important role in determining our position among the nations of the j

Continuing progress in science and technology is essential to the Hol. welfare and hence is a matter of concern to all the people.

o assure this progress is, therefore, clearly a concern of government. In modern times conditions require the government to take a direct and active role.

MAJOR OBJECTIVES OF FEDERAL Govern MENT role

I believe that the role of the Federal Government in science and technology involves three major objectives:

The first is to assure that the scientific and technological health of the country is first rate; that is, that we have a vigorous and healthy base upon which the whole social and economic progress can flourish. In the long range, our progress depends upon two elements, the constant augmentation of the fund of scientific knowledge derived through research, especially basic research, plus a vigorous program of educs

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