mid-World War II engine. We had a lot of parts and tools that were designed for that particular engine, totally obsolete now, and we have been selling a good deal of them. Senator ALLOTT. Well, I do not like to bother you, but I think the first time that I see some of these, I am going to send them over to your shop and say, how come, not with the idea of nitpicking, but I feel that there is an area here I cannot help but feel from watching the newspapers over a period of a year that there is an area which I think probably the Defense Department is the chief offender in this, and then you catch the flak because it comes over to you for disposal, as to some of these items, I think it would be interesting. Now, you have said that you disposed of $3 billion worth of surplus. Mr. BOUTIN. The Government as a whole. AMOUNTS OF PERSONAL PROPERTY DISPOSAL Mr. ALLOTT. Personal items in the past year, of which 0.9 was strictly GSA. Now, when I first came on this committee we had a talk with Mr. Floete, your predecessor, and I was shocked to learn that in 1 year we were disposing of some $7 billion, I believe, in surplus property. I wonder if it would be possible to put in the record at this point the amounts of property disposed of by the GSA, say for a period of 5 years. I think that if you are down to three now Senator MAGNUSON. The Government is down to three. Senator ALLOTT. The Government is down to three. Well, put it in by GSA disposals and the total Government-but speaking of the total Government, if you are down to three now, I think Senator Magnuson remembers that figure, wasn't it $7 billion he gave us one year? Senator MAGNUSON. $7 billion. Senator ALLOTT. I think this picture would be interesting, and I think it would justify your whole program which you have been trying to sell so hard to us each year. Mr. BOUTIN. I would be happy to get that in the record. Senator ALLOTT. That is all I have, Mr. Chairman. (The information referred to follows:) ACTIVITIES IN PERSONAL PROPERTY The following tabulation indicates total GSA activities in the utilization, donation, sale, and rehabilitation of personal property, and sales of personal property by the Department of Defense. 1 These items, together with property costing $2,100,000,000 which was expended to scrap, totaled slightly more than $3,000,000,000 in fiscal year 1963. 2 Not available. Department of Defense sales of surplus personal property 1 These items, together with property costing $2,100,000,000 which was expended to scrap, totaled slighly more than $3,000,000,000 in fiscal year 1963. PUBLIC SALES OF SURPLUS Senator MAGNUSON. But you can drive in any city in the outskirts, and World War II has been over now for close to 18 years, and there is still a big store selling surplus from World War II, 18 years later. Mr. BOUTIN. You know Senator MAGNUSON. And the items are World War II itemsclothing. Some of us that were in the service can recognize it. Mr. GRIFFIN. There is an awfully big business, Senator, of selling "like-Government items" in surplus stores. A lot of manufacturers are manufacturing cheaper commodities and putting the Governmenttype appearance on it, and many of these ads are "like Government service" ads. Senator MAGNUSON. That is something the Federal Trade Commission ought to be looking at. Senator ALLOTT. Well, didn't they do this, I recall, after World War I, and they had these army surplus stores which went on for years and years and years. Senator MAGNUSON. They are still going. Mr. BOUTIN. You will see come-on ads in magazines that surplus jeeps in original package are available which request the reader to send in a dollar, and they will send information on it. This is not so. We only occasionally have a few jeeps in the worst condition which we sell. AMOUNTS OF REAL PROPERTY DISPOSED OF, FISCAL YEAR 1964 Senator MAGNUSON. Could you put in the record, too, Howard, the amounts of real estate surplus we disposed of in the last fiscalthis fiscal year? Mr. BOUTIN. We will do it by category. Senator MAGNUSON. I know you would have to do it by category. Mr. BOUTIN. What we sold, what we donated for airport or educational purposes, and our inventory. Senator MAGNUSON. And then some were being negotiated like the ports of Seattle. You could have that in, being negotiated. And I think Mr. BOUTIN. As of right now Senator MAGNUSON. I think that figure would be interesting. (The information requested follows:) DISPOSAL OF REAL PROPERTY The following tabulation indicates total GSA activity in the disposal of surplus real property: 1 Included in this amount are properties with an original cost of $88,500,000 on which negotiations are pending for sale to public bodies, an example being the sale of a major portion of the Seattle Army Terminal to the port of Seattle. Mr. BOUTIN. We have around 430 properties with an acquisition value of around $912 million, is that about right, Mr. Greenberg? Mr. GREENBERG. The total excess and surplus inventory runs a little higher, Mr. Boutin. Acquisition cost as of the end of March was about a billion two hundred million dollars. Mr. BOUTIN. A billion, two. Mr. GREENBERG. About 450 properties. DISPOSAL OF SURPLUS PERSONAL PROPERTY Senator MAGNUSON. Now, when you have to put personal surplus property on the market, you have gone through all this business ofand you have some left that nobody wants in the Government. Then you call for bids on that or how do you work it? Mr. BOUTIN. Well, if it is real property, Mr. Chairman- Mr. BOUTIN. On personal property that is handled by the State agencies, through DHEW almost exclusively. DHEW will decide what is required for public purposes through the State agencies, mostly for educational, health, and some civil defense purposes. It goes to the State agencies upon GSA approval. Where we do not approve and we feel it should be sold-and some of this is exchange sales like automobiles-then we go out and either hold an auction or sealed bid. These are our two major methods of disposal. Senator MAGNUSON. Well, let us take just an example of handtools. Supposing you find yourself with x number of gross of handtools and you have asked everybody about it and probably half of them are left over. Then you send those-you call for bids. Mr. BOUTIN. Then we would lot those tools, and we would sell those tools by sealed bids or by acution, normally by sealed bids. Senator MAGNUSON. Now, sometimes there has been a complaint, I do not know whether justified or not, that you will offer them in a block and somebody did not want a block and he hasn't an opportunity to bid on a smaller amount. PERCENTAGE OF SALES TO SMALL BUSINESS Mr. BOUTIN. We have changed all of that. We are allotting in small amounts so that now about 95 percent of our total sales in surplus personal property is going to small business. Is that correct, Mr. Greenberg? Mr. GREENBERG. 99.8 percent. Mr. BOUTIN. 99.8 percent. Senator MAGNUSON. Well, I do not think-the complaint used to be that because it was a block, they did not have the opportunity. They did not want that. And they did not want to bid on a whole block. But how widespread that is now, I do not know. Mr. BOUTIN. No. We never get complaints on that now. Mr. BOUTIN. Still? Senator ALLOTT. Still get them? Senator MAGNUSON. Well, I do not know if we still do. I have not checked. But it used to be quite frequent. I just want to know if you changed it. Mr. BOUTIN. We haven't had any complaints of such nature recently. Senator MAGNUSON. All right. Are you still on this one item? I wanted to go into one thing here briefly. Senator MAGNUSON. Federal Supply Service. Now Senator MAGNUSON. No. I want to ask about this communication operation. Mr. BOUTIN. We would love to talk about it. DENVER AIRPORT Mr. ALLOTT. Before we leave this, could I ask you for a thumbnail sketch of what the situation is on the Denver Airport at the present time? If you have it. Mr. BOUTIN. Mr. Greenberg Mr. GRIFFIN. Rocky Mountain Arsenal? Mr. BOUTIN. Mr. Greenberg, Mr. GREENBERG. We are about to conclude the deal on that. We are waiting for the city to come up with the necessary funds, We have completed the deal; just the final consummation is pending. Mr. BOUTIN. Everything is in final agreement. Senator ALLOTT. Could he drop me a letter and give me the details? It does not need to go in the record. I would like to have it in my office. Mr. BOUTIN. I went to Denver personally and talked to the mayor and members of the authority to get that cleaned up. Senator ALLOTT. Your Office has been very cooperative in getting this cleaned up. Mr. BOUTIN. We have also worked out an arrangement with the State whereby we are exchanging some property in Colorado, large acreage, in fact, for State-owned lands at two locations. What was the name of that, Howard? Mr. GREENBERG. We are exchanging Federal property at Lowry Air Force Missile Site No. 1 for State property at Fort Carson and at Pueblo Army Depot. Senator MAGNUSON. Well, this is off the record. (Discussion off the record.) GENERAL SUPPLY FUND Senator MAGNUSON. Now, general supply funds, you got $30 million last year, and you have got a blank this year. Mr. BOUTIN. We do not require any money this year. Mr. BOUTIN. Because the revolving fund is working well. HOWARD UTILIZATION AND DISPOSAL SERVICE GREENBERG, COMMISSIONER; ACCOMPANIED BY WALTER C. MORELAND, ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER, OFFICE OF REAL PROPERTY; AND CURTIS A. ROOS, ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER, OFFICE OF PERSONAL PROPERTY INDEFINITE APPROPRIATIONS OF RECEIPTS Senator MAGNUSON. Indefinite appropriations of receipts. You will have to explain that to me. I do not understand that. Mr. BOUTIN. Well, actually the UDS appropriation is an authorization to use up to the amount of money that we are talking about here, $10,052,000, from receipts. It is an appropriation of receipts derived from property transfers and sales from general instead of direct appropriation from general revenue of the Treasury. Senator MAGNUSON. And because of the increase in their business, they have got to have authorized 762 ESTIMATE OF ACQUISITION FOR TRANSFER Mr. BOUTIN. I can give you a very quick thumbnail sketch of why we require that. In our utilization, reassignment from one agency to another of real property, we are estimating at acquisition cost $155 million for transfer, which is an increase of $15 million over 1964; and personal property, $555 million, which is an increase of $55 million over 1964. The donation program of real property at $205 million at acquisition, cost $5 million increase over 1964; and personal property donations through the State agencies, $415 million, an increase of $15 million over 1964. For sales income on real property, we are estimating revenue to the Treasury of $115 million, an increase of $14.6 million, and $11 million on personal property which is an increase of $900,000. This is the reason for the very, very small increase in operating expenses we are talking about, plus the fact that, of course, we have the pay act costs which we are absorbing in part. AUTHORIZATION FOR EXPENDITURE OF INCOME Senator ALLOTT. What this is, really, is an appropriation of funds to finance the Utilization and Disposal Service which is paid out of the receipts of the sales you make. Mr. BOUTIN. That is correct, Senator. Senator ALLOTT. In other words, it is a comparative item with the operating expenses of the Federal Supply Service, except that here |