APPROPRIATION FOR OPERATING EXPENSES, 1964 Senator ALLOTT. You remember last year we had this item and my recollection is that you were asking for $12 million more when you came over here, is that correct? Mr. BOUTIN. In the BM area? Senator ALLOTT. I haven't been able to follow you yet this morning because I don't find these classifications you are talking about on my sheet. Mr. BOUTIN. I am talking about "Operating expenses, Public Buildings Service." Senator MAGNUSON. That is on the first one. Senator ALLOTT. The first line? Mr. BOUTIN. Yes, that really constitutes the buildings management operation, Senator, under OE-PBS. Senator ALLOTT. Last year when you came over here I think you asked for $12 million more, something like that, and this committee gave you at least the best part of it. Do you recall where we ended up? Mr. BOUTIN. We have Senator ALLOTT. Here it is right here. Mr. BOUTIN. We ended up with about a $17 million increase on a comparable basis over the previous year, is that correct, Mr. Daly? Mr. DALY. Yes. Mr. BOUTIN. That provided, Senator, for the annualization of additional leases and for staffing in new buildings coming into being in fiscal year 1964. It provided for additional personnel in the management of space itself, the assignment and utilization of space, the whole gamut of the PBS responsibility. Senator ALLOTT. It was my understanding at the time that what we were arguing with the House about was funds chiefly for manning, for upkeep, ordinary day-by-day upkeep, and maintenance for the new buildings plus some additional to raise the standard on the other buildings. This is my recollection. Now, I would like to know in view of that what this plus 14 means in net care. This is what I mean. EFFECT OF 1964 HOUSE ACTION Mr. BOUTIN. What we were actually discussing last year, Senator, was the fact that with the original House mark, we were not only not going to maintain the level we were talking about, but if that had remained, and if we hadn't received the assistance of this committee, we very frankly could not have in any way adequately cleaned our buildings. We would have dropped down to 40, 45, 50 percent of standards, which would have meant we would have had the dirtiest buildings in the United States. Now, through the relief granted by this committee, we were able to keep up and to do a reasonable job. Not as good as we think needs to be done but a reasonable job, and that is precisely the same level that we are asking for this year. Senator ALLOTT. All right. Now, we gave you $14 million and then y conference. I don't have the conference Senator MAGNUSON. I think we split it in half. Mr. BOUTIN. More than half. Senator MAGNUSON. More than half? Mr. BOUTIN. I think we came out at $210 or $212 million. INCREASE FOR OPERATING EXPENSES, PBS, 1965 Senator MAGNUSON. Yes; $210,875,000 and they are asking for this year, the budget is $224 million or $14,020,000 over last years' appropriation, but less $233,800, which gives you, how do you get that minus $325,000 in there? Mr. BOUTIN. I don't have your chart, Senator, so it is difficult for me to follow you. Senator MAGNUSON. Right at the bottom there. REVISED ESTIMATES Mr. BOUTIN. That is the revised estimate. That is the part of the total reduction that was requested on March 9 by the President, that applies to operating expenses, Public Buildings Service. Senator MAGNUSON. But you are over last year's appropriation. Mr. BOUTIN. Oh, yes. Senator MAGNUSON. For the reasons just stated? Mr. BOUTIN. Yes, our net increase in operating expenses, Public Buildings Service, Senator, is $2,126,000, more than last year after deducting the $325,000 from our 1965 original estimate. Now, the principal reason for the increase is new buildings that have come into being, for which we have to provide personnel, cleaning people, and guards. Senator ALLOTT. What I was really trying to get at, Mr. Boutin, was to get the picture clear in my mind. I think I had it very clear last year. What I would like to ask you is if we add the $14 million this year or something in that neighborhood, does this mean that you would only be up to where you were last year? Mr. BOUTIN. Exactly. We would be exactly in the same position we were last year, taking into consideration the additional workload. Senator ALLOTT. So our operating expenses is to take care of, by and large, the day-to-day cleaning, and so forth? Mr. BOUTIN. That is correct. Senator ALLOTT. It is going up at the rate of about $14 million a year? Mr. BOUTIN. No. That isn't wholly true. PAYMENT FOR LEASED SPACE Mr. BOUTIN. For the principal reason that much of this is for the payment of leased space. Now, as our public buildings program, construction program, catches up this will be reversed. I would like to point out an example of what I am talking about. In 1954, public buildings, in the BM area, had 34 more employees than we propose for 1965, while the workload has increased by almost one-third overall. We are figuring for instance in this budget that the cost of leased space is going up nationwide an average of one and a half percent for fiscal 1965. This is much less than private industry would tell you. They would use a norm of 4, 42, 5 percent, but we acknowledge that we lease cheaper than private industry can so we are using one and a half percent. Senator MAGNUSON. What you are saying is if you keep the present standard Mr. BOUTIN. Yes, sir. Senator MAGNUSON (continuing). The 14 million additional would only bring you up with the increased space to the present standard? Mr. BOUTIN. Well, that is correct, but we are not really talking $14 million, Senator, because there are items in here such as transfers. Senator MAGNUSON. All right. MAINTENANCE AND OPERATING EXPENSES How much are we talking on maintenance and operating expenses? Mr. BOUTIN. Mr. Daly, can you give that? Senator MAGNUSON. How much from last year? Mr. BOUTIN. About seven and a half million dollars, isn't it? Mr. BOUTIN. Just about half of it. Senator MAGNUSON. Is that correct? Mr. DALY. I would like to check that, but I believe that's about right. Senator MAGNUSON. Assume there are about half of it, so to keep the present standards for cleaning and maintenance and things, operating expenses, you would have to move up about $7 million a year. Mr. BOUTIN. That is correct. Senator MAGNUSON. If you keep the normal pace of acquired space, new buildings, and so on, and so forth. FULL-YEAR COSTS OF EXPANSION SPACE AND FUNCTIONAL TRANSFERS Mr. BOUTIN. Then you add to that the transfer items, the items that were paid from other agency's budgets last year that we are required by regulations of the Bureau of the Budget to incorporate in our budget this year, which is a very large item. You have in addition to that, transfer items of functions themselves a very good example of that is the Roosevelt Library transferred to us from the Department of Interior during fiscal 1964. This now becomes part of our operating base. All told, agencies have provided in their 1964 appropriations for transfer to GSA about $9 million, Mr. Daly, for new leased space? Mr. DALY. That is correct, sir. Mr. BOUTIN. That was transferred to us from their budgets, but we have to annualize in our budgets the following year. THE 1964 SENATE RECOMMENDATIONS Senator ALLOTT. Mr. Chairman, last year this committee said: The committee recommends restoration of $14 million to provide a total amount of $214,875,000 for operating expenses of the Public Buildings Service, which is $1,564,000 below the budget estimate. The committee is advised that without this restoration the employment of many custodial personnel would have to be terminated, no funds would be available to manage new space acquired during the year, and the cleaning staff would have to be reduced in half. It was my understanding last year when we were discussing this item, we were talking mainly about upkeep, Mr. Boutin. Mr. BOUTIN. That is correct. BREAKDOWN OF MAINTENANCE ITEM Senator ALLOTT. Now, you have broken this down and I think the whole breakdown of this item should go in the record. Mr. BOUTIN. Yes, sir. Senator ALLOTT. So that we have a picture of it. In other words, particularly am I interested in how much it takes to maintain these buildings so that we are not operating, contributing to the depreciation of the building by not maintaining it. Then, if I understand this, gentlemen, if we added $7 million instead of the $14, and leaving out the other items for a moment, we would only be maintaining up to the present level, is this correct? Mr. BOUTIN. That is correct. You see, Senator Senator MAGNUSON. The item, you could never ask the question how much more it goes up every year exactly because it is a relative matter, it depends on how much you want to maintain per square foot the buildings. Now, as I understand it, we have always been under the normal maintenance schedule that a comparable private building would have. Mr. BOUTIN. That is correct. Senator MAGNUSON. If we wanted to go up to that schedule, you might say, we might have to go up to $25 million. Mr. BOUTIN. If we were to go up to 80 percent of cleaning standards where we think we should be, instead of asking for $224 million plus in the operating expenses, Public Buildings Service area, we would be asking a lot closer to $235 million. BUILDINGS MANAGEMENT EXPENSES You see, Senator, of the total operating expenses, Public Buildings Service of $224,895,000, $212,607,800 is in the area of buildings management, or substantially more than 90 percent. Senator MAGNUSON. Well, the B. & M. would include the management itself, plus the custodial services plus the expense of operating the building. Mr. BOUTIN. That is day-to-day maintenance of the building including guarding service, and custodial. Senator MAGNUSON. But not Mr. BOUTIN. It includes payment of rents where we lease and it also includes operation of leased space as well as Government-owned space. Senator MAGNUSON. Does it include heating, lights? Mr. BOUTIN. It includes heat, lights, and all utility services, except telephones. Senator MAGNUSON. So this item is, well there is only $10 million out of $224 million that isn't in that thing. Mr. BOUTIN. That is right, about $12 million that is outside of that area. Senator MAGNUSON. Thank you. Mr. BOUTIN. But the total increase Senator MAGNUSON. Break that item down for us so we know just what it is. You can put it in the record. Mr. BOUTIN. All right. (The information referred to follows:) ANALYSIS OF CHANGES IN BUDGET ESTIMATES, 1965 OVER AMOUNT AVAILABLE IN 1964 A. Buildings management: 1. Operation and protection of Government-owned (a) Cost of servicing space in new buildings be- (b) Cost of servicing space in abandoned post (c) Release of Government-owned space due to Increased electrical consumption.. Wage board increases, July 1 and Sept. 14, ( 1965 cost of classified pay adjustments Total, buildings management.. 210, 748, 800 B. Space management.. C. Design and construction. D. Program planning. 4,946, 300 E. Service direction. +16, 400 -55,900 F. Administrative operations.. 5, 235, 400 733,600 294, 600 923, 600 5,100,000 Total, operating expenses, Public Buildings Service. 222, 444,000 +2,451,000 224,895,000 Mr. BOUTIN. Should I proceed, Mr. Chairman? Senator MAGNUSON. Yes. Let's take these item by item, I think we can understand it a little better, is that all agreeable? Senator ALLOTT. Fine. |