Senator MAGNUSON. For the record, the active appropriation in 1962, we appropriated $11 million; in 1963, $20 million; and in 1964, $60 million-which has not been spent, pending this contract.

APPROVAL OF COUNCIL AND FAA BUDGETS

Senator SALTONSTALL. Mr. Chairman, may I ask a question?
Senator MAGNUSON. Go right ahead.

Senator SALTONSTALL. Mr. Welsh, I asked you whether you approved of the space budget in your Council. I should also include, I think, the FAA budget, particularly with relation to the supersonic aircraft development. Have you been consulted about that?

Dr. WELSH. We did not go over the FAA budget, no, sir. Senator SALTONSTALL. Even with respect to this new plane? Dr. WELSH. Only the SST portion of the thing did we go over; but not the whole FAA budget.

Senator SALTONSTALL. And you were consulted and did approve of that?

Dr. WELSH. This was our recommendation; yes, sir.

FEDERAL RESPONSIBILITY IN COMMERCIAL TRANSPORT

Senator SALTONSTALL. I think one very disturbing thing from the point of view of us sitting here today, and in Congress, is how far the development of the A-11, which has now been made public, will advance this commercial plane, and, if it is going to advance this commercial plane, then how much more money should the Federal Government put into the commercial plane, while it is putting 100 percent up for the A-11. Have you considered that?

Dr. WELSH. We have not been in a position to judge exactly, or with any degree of precision, just how much fallout there is from the A-11 into the supersonic transport. That is, what carryover or advantage can be used from it. We think there is some. But there is a whole lot of difference between a military aircraft and a commercial aircraft to be used for economic and profit purposes.

ENGINES IN COMMERCIAL AND A-11 PLANES

Senator SALTONSTALL. It is very difficult for me to understand why the engines and so forth are different.

Dr. WELSH. I do not think the engines are transferable, but there is some experience you get from the engines that helps you build a better engine for the commercial craft.

Senator SALTONSTALL. Your Council has given consideration to that?

Dr. WELSH. Yes, sir. I think the people making the technical evaluations are doing that.

Senator SALTONSTALL. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Senator MAGNUSON. Of course, this thing could be in reverse. The 707 that we all ride in now is really a big fallout from the military 52. And this could be in reverse, the other way. Dr. WELSH. The KC 135 was almost the same.

COUNCIL'S INFORMATION ON A-11 DEVELOPMENT

Senator YOUNG of North Dakota. Do you have access to the experience gained with the A-11?

Dr. WELSH. I think the FAA does. We do not in our Council. Senator MAGNUSON. Well, you ought to have.

Senator ALLOTT, Mr. Chairman, since this has been brought up, I would like to ask Dr. Welsh a few questions about the A-11. Dr. WELSH. I am no expert on the A-11, sir.

Senator ALLOTT. Well, all I know about it is what I read in the papers, too.

I would like to ask you several questions-specific questions. I would like to have you tell us when the A-11 program first came to the knowledge of the Space Council.

Dr. WELSH. The A-11 was never taken up by the Space Council as a project, and so I suppose the only answer I can give you is that when it was announced by the President, also the Council knew about it, as a council.

Senator ALLOTT. Individually, did you participate in any discussions or programing or anything else concerning the A-11?

Dr. WELSH. So far as I know, only the Secretary of Defense did, who was a member of the Council.

Senator ALLOTT. Well, I am asking you as an individual.

Dr. WELSH. No, I did not, no, sir. If I can add a little explanation-we have not gotten into the development problems that relate to specific military aircraft in the Council. Where there is only one agency involved, we have seldom gotten into any of the problems.

NO GENERAL COMMITTEE KNOWLEDGE ON A-11

Senator ALLOTT. Well, the thing that I am concerned about is that in 1961 and 1962, and again in 1963 we went into the problem of the B-70 at great length in a subcommittee. We discussed in great detail with the members of the Defense Department, why there was no place for a supersonic bomber of any kind, or even a reconnaissance aircraft. And then we found out subsequently that this was being developed all along. While I understand that two or three members of this committee perhaps had knowledge of it, the members generally of the Defense Subcommittee, and certainly the members of this subcommittee, had no knowledge of it.

DISCUSSION ON B-70 AND RS-70

Now, it raises several questions. First of all, it raises the question of why we were going into all of these reasons about the B-70 or the RS-70 not being developed, and at the same time they were developing a plane with some of the same potential characteristics which we were told 2 years ago, in 1962, was absolutely impossible because the state of electronic development had not reached the point where a 2,000-mile-an-hour plane could be practical under any circumstances, either for bombing or for reconnaisance. You can find this testimony here by Secretary McNamara, Dr. Harold Brown, and his committee.

I just wonder why we were going into all of this flim-flam these last 2 or 3 years when they knew this while they were talking to this

committee. I just want to assure myself-because I do intend to go into this quite fully later. But I wanted to assure myself what your part was in it.

You said that you had no part personally, or that your Council had no part, and that you knew nothing about it really until the President announced it.

Dr. WELSH. That is correct, sir.

Senator ALLOTT. Thank you.

PARTICIPATION IN COMMUNICATIONS SATELLITE CORP. ISSUES

Senator MAGNUSON. Now, on item "G," if you look on page 2 of your statement, you call attention to the fact that you participated in continuing review of the major policy and planning issues confronting the Communications Satellite Corp.

Now, if you have done that, can you bring us a little up to date on their activities?

Dr. WELSH. This participation that we have is in a so-called ad hoc committee of interested agencies of the Government represented thereon that are to see to it that the Communications Satellite Corp., and the Government are carrying out the provisions of the act as passed by the Congress.

Consequently, we get involved in questions of meeting with other countries, joint effort with the Defense Department, the type of systems that will be developed, whether they be high- or mediumaltitude systems, coordination between, say, the FCC and NASA and the Defense Department and so forth.

PRESENT PLANS FOR STOCK SALES

At the present time, the corporation is just about to issue stock for sale, for its own financing side of it, and I understand that there is considerable public interest in the purchase of these securities.

They also are engaged in discussions with European countries, and also with Japan, and I understand that there has been a proposal made from Soviet Russia that there be some discussion with the Communication Satellite Corp. as to how they might participate in a worldwide or global system. There has been no progress so far on the Soviet

Senator MAGNUSON. But they did have a meeting in Europe.
Dr. WELSH. That is correct.

FINANCIAL PARTICIPATION BY OTHER COUNTRIES

Senator MAGNUSON. And all of the countries involved expressed a desire for financial participation, too, did they not?

Dr. WELSH. They want financial participation, and they want participation also in the sale or purchase of equipment.

Senator MAGNUSON. And the stock issue is about to be launched. I think the committee can know that they talked to me about it about 2 weeks ago I think they are oversold on the stock issue. It is just about all bought up-the public participation. So they are ready to begin operation. I think they are meeting here next week, or the week after next again.

But would you say that the general proposition-because you review this that the international participation, both financially and in the way of using the satellite, is very good as of now?

Dr. WELSH. I think it is. I think it is progressing very well. There are still some things yet to be decided, however, as to how much participation and how much financial investment there will be. But the attitude toward the system is excellent.

1966 COMPLETION OF FULL SYSTEM

Senator MAGNUSON. And I think we should understand that they anticipate that by 1966 they would have a whole system, either medium, low or high, in the atmosphere.

Dr. WELSH. Yes.

Senator MAGNUSON. For television, or whatever they are going

to use.

Dr. WELSH. The first system they plan to have will be a synchronous system. And they may then move to a medium altitude system after that.

BILATERAL PARTICIPATION WITH SOVIET UNION

Senator MAGNUSON. Now, on "J", you say you participated in the development of U.S. positions with respect to bilateral arrangement with the Soviet Union in the field of weather, communications, and geomagnetic satellites. Now, tell us about that.

Dr. WELSH. In the discussions that have gone on between the Soviet Union and the United States as a matter of fact, they have been headed here in this country by Dr. Hugh Dryden of NASA and by Mr. Blagonrovov of the Soviet Union. They examined the areas in which there could be some cooperation with mutual benefits to both, without one country giving more than the other country would be giving. They came up with agreements in weather, communications, and geomagnetic satellites.

EXCHANGE OF WEATHER SATELLITE PICTURES

For instance, in the weather satellite the agreement was that we would take certain pictures from our meteorological satellites, and they would take pictures from theirs, and we would exchange the pictures taken-in other words, complete control on the part of the picture taker of what was sent from one country to the other. Senator ALLOTT. Are we getting those?

Dr. WELSH. We are not getting them as yet, because the Soviets have not yet put into operation a weather satellite. They are behind us in that area of space. They have an agreement that when they do have such competence, they will make this exchange. We are not sending them anything yet, either.

Senator ALLOTT. And we won't send them anything until they actually start in on a partial performance of their contract and give us the quid pro quo.

Dr. WELSH. This is exactly the arrangement, Senator.

On communications, this just has to do with the Echo satellite, bouncing signals off of a passive satellite and exchanging the information there. This already is underway.

The geomagnetic satellite-they have not yet participated in it; But we have worked up programs for these three fields.

UNITED STATES AND U.S.S.R. SPACE ACTIVITIES

Senator MAGNUSON. Now, on the "O," page 3

maintained a current record of United States and Soviet space launches, developed comparisons between United States and U.S.S.R. space activities, and reviewed space accomplishment and potential of other nations.

Can you tell us anything about that, on or off the record?

Dr. WELSH. I can tell you in brief, and also submit for the record a summary of the comparisons on each point such as propulsion, scientific developments, number of payloads, and so forth. I think that would be helpful to you.

Senator MAGNUSON. Yes.

Dr. WELSH. I can shorten my reply to your question by just saying I will submit a little statement for the record.

Senator MAGNUSON. Yes; we would like to have that. (The statement referred to follows:)

DEAR MR. CHAIRMAN: In response to your Appropriation Subcommittee's request of today, I am submitting a brief summary of how we compare with the U.S.S.R. in space progress to date. Before doing so, however, I want to emphasize that the Soviets have a strong orderly program, with every indication that it is continuing vigorously, apparently unaffected by adverse economic factors in their country.

Here is how we compare:

(1) As regards that key feature of booster power, the Soviets are ahead on an operational basis, although we are moving up rapidly, having attained the current weight-lifting record on a test shot by the SATURN I.

(2) We have placed almost four times as many payloads into Earth orbit, while they continue each year to increase their absolute lead in total weight of net payloads orbited.

(3) Our numerical progress in orbiting payloads is impressive. Last year alone, the United States put more payloads into Earth orbit than the U.S.S.R. has since SPUTNIK I in 1957.

(4) The increasing reliability of our launchings is also impressive. During the past 3 years, we placed successfully into Earth orbit 82 percent of all the payloads which we attempted to put there. The Soviet record, while not identical, is comparable.

(5) The Soviet heavy VOSTOK class of vehicle has accumulated some 1,600 orbits, as compared with 37 for our smaller MERCURY. In flying time even their female cosmonaut has gained more orbital experience than all of our astronauts combined. GEMINI, APOLLO, and MOL may well correct that imbalance, but at the present we are well behind.

(6) The Soviets have devoted more of their attention to far-out space than we have. As a percentage of total space launching attempts, they have devoted five times as much effort to escape missions to the Moon and planets as we have. The opposite is true as to near-Earth orbits, in which the U.S. emphasis has been much greater than theirs.

(7) Both countries have made impressive strides in accumulating scientific data about space. We may even be ahead in this regard, but it is not safe to

assume so.

(8) The United States is clearly ahead in worldwide sharing of space research in cooperative programs, and in direct application of space technology to practical use in communications, weather reporting, geodesy, and navigation.

Respectfully,

MOON PROJECT

E. C. WELSH.

Senator MAGNUSON. Now, on the Moon project, we have been reading a lot since we last saw you up here about the time. You keep close touch with that program. Supposing we decide to go ahead with the Moon project. When do they expect to do it, datewise?