Mr. KIRKPATRICK. Absolutely not. I think it would be unwise and uneconomical to do it.

Senator KENDRICK. You would not be willing, as you have already stated, to have him take over the proposition under any condition other than under the Federal water power act?

Mr. KIRKPATRICK. Absolutely not. I understand this, I don't know whether I am correct or not, for Dams Nos. 2 and 3 for 100 years Mr. Ford agrees to pay a rental of $219,964,954, and the power companies, which does not include the Southern Power Co., for whom I hold no brief at all, sir; the power companies--I am quoting on high authority the associated power companies, offer to pay $138,084,400 rental for the same dams for 50 years, or $295,624,400 for a hundred years. If that is true, sir, the Government loses $34,217,746 in 50 years, or in a hundred years they lose $75,659,446, by accepting Mr. Ford's plan, and I think you gentlemen are absolutely a hundred per cent American. I think your integrity is absolutely above reproach. I think you fear God and you fear man, and I think you are business men; and I think from the business standpoint, from the moral standpoint, from the religious standpoint, and from a commonsense standpoint it is your duty to lease this plant so as to benefit the greatest number of our 105,000,000 of people.

We would die for you, we did But don't let us be selfish about have a narrow vision about this right, and whenever a man does

I want to say to the distinguished Senator from Alabama whom I love, and for whom I have the highest respect, I want to see Alabama progress. We love Alabama. You know every southern State loves every other southern State. die once, and we will do it again. this matter, Senator. Let us not matter, but let us do that which is that which is right, he has no need to fear anybody. I love this Nation, gentlemen. My State was one of the first States to ratify the Articles of Confederation in 1789; the last State to leave the Union and the first to go back. North Carolina, in 1790 sent 400 troops under the command of Admiral Vernon, the uncle of George Washington, to fight on Venezuelan soil.

In 1848 North Carolina furnished the President that extended the borders of this Nation north of the Rio Grande from the Mississippi River to the Pacific Ocean.

In 1898 North Carolina boys-Lieut. Worth Bagley and Lieut. William E. Shipp-made the first sacrifice in defense of the American flag, in the Spanish-American War. In 1918, it was North Carolina and Tennessee troops that broke the Hindenburg line, and North Carolina at all times stands ready to defend her country, both with her manhood and her money. Whenever either is needed, call on us and we will give it to you.

The CHAIRMAN. All right. We are very much obliged to you.

STATEMENT OF MR. E. C. DWELLE, VICE PResident cHADWICK & HOSKINS, CHARLOTTE, N. C.

Mr. DWELLE. My name is E. C. Dwelle. I am vice president of Chadwick-Hoskins Co. of Charlotte. We operate a chain of cotton mills in and around Charlotte-119,000 spindles.

The CHAIRMAN. I don't want to cut you short, but you understand we will have to quit at 12 o'clock.

Mr. DWELLE. I don't think there is very much I can say, Mr. Chairman, in view of what Colonel Kirkpatrick has said. He said almost everything. But I, as a cotton manufacturer, and my people, are interested in the question of electric power in my section. We operate all of our mills by electric power, which we buy from the Southern Power Co. That company is regulated by the North Carolina Corporation Commission, as Colonel Kirkpatrick said.

Senator RANSDELL. Do you indorse his statements in the main? Mr. DWELLE. I do indorse his statements in the main; yes, sir, as a cotton manufacturer and one largely interested in the development of the State.

Senator RANSDELL. Do the people of your State indorse those sentiments generally?

Mr. DWELLE. Yes, sir.

Senator KENDRICK. The chairman asked a question a while ago of the other witness, what proportion of the power used in North Carolina is steam power and what proportion electric power.

Mr. DWELLE. Well, I would say certainly 65 per cent of it was electric power.

Senator KENDRICK. Hydroelectric?

Mr. DWELLE. Yes, sir; hydroelectric. That power is developed or generated in and around within 75 to 100 miles of Charlotte and is transmitted from the Savannah River on the border between South Carolina and Georgia, is transmitted from there up to the Virginia line, a distance of something over 200 miles.

Senator RANSDELL. Not all of your potential hydroelectric powers have been developed?

Mr. DWELLE. No, sir.

Senator RANSDELL. You have a great many that could be developed?

Mr. DWELLE. A great many still to be developed. As Colonel Kirkpatrick states, the development of the cotton manufacturing industry which is to-day the big industry of the South has largely been due to the hydroelectric development in and around our section. We do, time and again, have to shut down because of low water. If this power in Alabama had been available to be transmitted up there we could have kept our plants running and provided employment for a great many people. We had that happen last fall. In 1916, as Colonel Kirkpatrick stated, the Southern Power Co. did secure power from the Georgia Co., and some of it came down over the Alabama border. I don't know whether it came from Muscle Shoals or not.

The CHAIRMAN. It did not come from Muscle Shoals in 1916, but you needed it again in 1922, and at that time it came from the plant at Muscle Shoals.

Mr. DWELLE. They tied it in with other companies. They arranged so it can be tied in with different companies, the Carolina Light & Power Co., the Southern Power Co., the Georgia Railway & Power Co., the Saluda Power Co., and I will not say about the Alabama Power Co., because I am not sure about that.

Senator KENDRICK. Can you tell us the distance, by this roundabout way, power has been relayed?

Mr. DWELLE. I would say it has been around 200 miles, because it is 268 miles to Atlanta, and this Muscle Shoals is something over a hundred miles beyond Atlanta. It is bound to be considerable over 200 miles.

The CHAIRMAN. Of course, they did not send the power direct from Muscle Shoals to North Carolina, but the steam plant at Muscle Shoals gave it to the Alabama Power Co., and the Alabama Power Co. then released some of their power to the next and they to the next until it got to North Carolina, so it had the same effect as though they took it direct.

Mr. DWELLE. I do not claim to know anything about the details of the proposition contained in this McKenzie bill, or the whole subject, except in a general way. We believe that this power should not be leased except under the conditions of the Federal water power act. It certainly should not be leased, in our estimation, for a hundred years under the conditions as we understand this offer, and should not be leased in such a way that the Government did not have a great deal more control over it than I understand it would have under this bill. We believe that the regulation of the water powers is one of the best things that could happen to us, and it has been generally conceded to be a good thing for our section.

Senator RANSDELL. Would not your people like to see all of this power disseminated throughout the country?

Mr. DWELLE. We think so.

Senator RANSDELL. Instead of building up a big city there?

Mr. DWELLE. We certainly would. As cotton manufacturing men we would not consider building cotton mills in a big community. We would not do that if we had to build a mill to-day. I don't mean that in any unpatriotic way.

The CHAIRMAN. That is one of the things that those who see ahead think. We call them dreamers sometimes. They can see that the diversification of manufacture will come about by a wide distribution of electric power, and that as a big, broad principle, it is better to have all the country developed than to have one locality developed at the expense of the balance of the country. The tying in of different systems, making interlocking systems, enables the little manufacturer and the people all over the country to have it in their homes and use it in their home life, whereas if it was given to one person it would all be used for the profit of that person.

Senator RANSDELL. I think it would result in congestion in the big cities, which is considered so detrimental to civilization. That could not happen through the system under which you are developing in North Carolina.

Mr. DWELLE. I think that the development of North Carolina has largely been due to the fact that we have a scattered community. We have no great cities. We have a great many middle-sized cities, and we have had very rapid development of our State.

Senator RANSDELL. You should be proud of your record.

The CHAIRMAN. We will have to adjourn until 10 o'clock Monday morning.

(Whereupon, the committee adjourned until 10 o'clock a. m., Monday, April 28, 1924.)

S. 139, S. 2372. S. 2747, S. 3214, and H. R. 518

BILLS RELATIVE TO THE COMPLETION

OF MUSCLE SHOALS

APRIL 28, 29, 30, MY 1, 2, 3, 5, 6, AND 7, 1924

PART 3

Printed for the use of the Committee on Agriculture and Forestry

COMMITTEE ON AGRICULTURE AND FORESTRY

GEORGE W. NORRIS, Nebraska, Chairman

MAGNUS JOHNSON, Minnesota

MABELLE J. TALBERT, Clerk