that he would be under no legal obligation to do it. I will submit the letter to the committee before we conclude these hearings.

Senator RANSDELL. I think we ought to have it.

The CHAIRMAN. There was another question I thought I had put in my first communication, but I found when I examined the answer of the Judge Advocate General and looked up the copy of my letter, that I had omitted it, and that was the question whether the United States Government had the power under the McKenzie bill to go out on the Black Warrior River and condemn a site for a steam plant, and condemn a right of way from that plant to Muscle Shoals for the purpose of turning it over to a private corporation.

Senator RANSDELL. As a substitute for that Gorgas plant?

The CHAIRMAN. Yes. Personally I do not see how any lawyer can claim for a moment that the Congress has the constitutional authority to compel the Secretary of War to condemn the property of one private citizen for the avowed purpose of turning it over to another.

Senator HEFLIN. Unless the Government was going to carry out the purpose through the conduct of the other.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes; but there is not anything in the contract binding him to use that condemned property and new steam plant. for the purpose of carrying out any governmental activity whatever. There is not a semblance of intimation even in the bill.

Senator RANSDELL. You will put the reply to that question in the record?

The CHAIRMAN. Whatever the outcome may be, I will submit it to the committee, no matter what the opinion may be.

Senator RALSTON. Do you know, Senator Heflin, to what extent, if any, Mr. Ford would consent to have his bill amended? Senator HEFLIN. I don't think he wants it amended at all.

Senator RALSTON. I have no doubt of that.

Senator HEFLIN. That has been stated on the floor of the House. I think, Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes; and stated on the floor of the Senate. Senator HARRISON. His representative, I understand, wants to appear here.

Senator HEFLIN. His representative will be here, Senator Ralston, and you can ask him.

The CHAIRMAN. I want to submit this to you, Mr. Magruder, as a lawyer. Are you familiar with the provision of the McKenzie bill that provides for the building of another steam plant over there and giving it to Ford?

Mr. MAGRUDER. Yes, sir; I am reasonably familiar with it.

The CHAIRMAN. Now, as a lawyer, suppose the Secretary of War, in carrying out that provision, if it becomes a law, is compelled, which he will be, to condemn the property for the site and condemn the right of way, has Congress any constitutional authority to authorize the condemnation of property on the Black Warrior River and the condemnation of a right of way over to Muscle Shoals and turn it over to this private corporation?

Mr. MAGRUDER. My personal opinion, Senator, would be that there would be no right of eminent domain for the condemnation of property for private purposes or private uses. I have given it no

particular thought or study, but that would be my offhand opinion on it.

Senator HEFLIN. Suppose the Government should say to the person that it was condemned for, that "You will use this property whenever you want to, to make nitrates for the Army, but you shall use it to make fertilizer for the benefit of the farmers of the United States," then it might be constitutional, might it not?

The CHAIRMAN. That is not the McKenzie bill, however. It does not provide that.

Senator HEFLIN. It provides that he shall make fertilizer.

The CHAIRMAN. It does not provide that he shall make anything with this particular property that we are going to condemn. Senator HEFLIN. He would use 20 per cent of it.

The CHAIRMAN. I know, but he has already more than that without getting this.

Mr. MAGRUDER. Now, Mr. Chairman, that is substantially all I have to say unless some member of the committee has some particular question he wants to ask me.

The CHAIRMAN. Are there any questions by any member of the committee?

If not, we are very much obliged to you.

Mr. MAGRUDER. I might add one thing with reference to the sentiment in the State. The Manufacturers' Journal is a most influential publication in our State, and it was originally for the Ford offer. They had a good deal to do with the original sentiment in our State, and if Senator Harrison will look up the original report that his committee submitted, the committee of which he was a member, the minority report-I think, if I am not mistaken Mr. Wier, or I, one or the other, have it over there in our files-I think you will find, Senator, among other things, it was stated in your minority report he would manufacture nitrates in time of war and fertilizer in time of peace, and the distribution of water power also. Now, then, as a matter of fact the McKenzie bill does not contemplate or provide for the distribution of water power at all, but that was in the original report, and if the committee will investigate

Senator MCNARY. You mean in the Ladd report? You mean the minority report of this committee?

Mr. MAGRUDER. Yes, sir; the Ladd report.

You will find that statement in that report, and upon material of that kind the sentiment of Mississippi has largely, I think, been formulated. As a matter of fact, there is nothing in the McKenzie bill that provides for the distribution of water power.

The CHAIRMAN. And there is nothing in Mr. Ford's offers, either the amended or any other offer. It has been conceded up to this point. at least, by those who have appeared, that he does not intend to sell it. Under his proposition I don't blame him for it.

Senator RANSDELL. Is not the Manufacturers' Record uncompromisingly against the Ford proposition as it stands now!

Mr. MAGRUDER. It is now.

Senator RANSDELL. Do you know of any more influential journal or any journal more patriotically devoted to the South than the Manufacturers' Record?

Mr. MAGRUDER. No, sir. It is the leading industrial journal of the South.

The CHAIRMAN. Where is that published?

Mr. MAGRUDER. In Baltimore, Md. Originally, it was in favor of the Ford offer, and it had a great deal to do with formulating the opinion of the South in favor of the Ford offer; but after it came to understand the situation, that no provision or guarantee was given for the distribution of hydroelectric power, they absolutely reversed their opinion on the proposition, and they now stand irrevocably opposed to the McKenzie bill.

The CHAIRMAN. We will adjourn until 10 o'clock to-morrow morning.

(Whereupon the committee adjourned until 10 o'clock a. m., Saturday, April 26, 1924.)

MUSCLE SHOALS

SATURDAY, APRIL 26, 1924

UNITED STATES SENATE,

COMMITTEE ON AGRICULTURE AND FORESTRY,

Washington, D. C.

The committee met, pursuant to adjournment, at 10 o'clock a. m., Senator George W. Norris presiding.

Present: Senators Norris (chairman), McNary, Capper, Ladd, McKinley, Ransdell, Kendrick, Harrison, Heflin, Ralston, Johnson.

STATEMENT OF MR. JAMES R. GARFIELD, FORMER SECRETARY OF THE INTERIOR

The CHAIRMAN. You know what the committee has before it. and we will be glad to have you go on in your own way and give us your views on Muscle Shoals and the conservation of water power in general.

Mr. GARFIELD. Mr. Chairman and gentlemen, I wish to approach the subject on the general principles that for many years past, those interested in the development of water power have been considering for the purpose of adopting a general plan under which the water power resources of the country can be best developed in accordance with the needs of all the people of the country. My reason for asking the opportunity of discussing this question now is that the proposition contained in the bill recently passed by the House, known as the Muscles Shoals Ford bill, seems to me so destructive of what we have been striving for during the last 20 years as to require a very clear understanding of the conditions that have existed and upon which the legislation known as the water power act was based.

To many of you the facts of 20 years ago are clear. To some others they may not be. In 1901, 1902, and 1903 the question of the effect of the taking up of the power sites throughout the country began to be prominent. The power companies in the extension of their works and in endeavoring to meet the needs of their own particular localities were acquiring, as they had a perfect right to do under the conditions then existing, various advantageous sites for the use of the further development of power.

This was particularly true in the Western States, where many of those sites were still under the control of the Federal Government. There then developed not only the acquisition of sites for the purpose of immediate use, but very naturally the acquisition of sites to be held for the future, for indefinite use. Indefinite as to time and as to extent, and in many instances speculative in character.

Those questions were under the consideration of the administration of President Roosevelt and were connected with the general pol

icies of conservation as they later developed. It is interesting to note that Muscle Shoals was one of the earliest sites that came under the consideration of his administration. There was a Muscle Shoals power bill passed by the Congress in 1903, which on the 3d of March, 1903. President Roosevelt vetoed. Doubtless some of you, possibly all of you, are familiar with that veto, but I would wish to have you consider it again in the light of present developments.

Under the terms of that bill the Muscle Shoals water power was to be given to Mr. Thompson and others. President Roosevelt vetoed the bill on the ground that he did not believe it was wise to give to a private company the power to use and develop Muscle Shoals for their own private benefit, and then he outlined the policy that he believed should govern in the future, calling attention to the fact that it was his belief that no private right of that kind should be granted, but that there should be a general law adopted under the provisions of which there would be equal and free opportunity for competition, and that any grant made should be surrounded by such safeguards as would protect the public welfare.

Therefore, we began the study of the whole power problem throughout the country.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Garfield, at the time of that veto, what position did you occupy?

Mr. GARFIELD. I was at that time Civil Service Commissioner. The CHAIRMAN. How long after that was it that you became a member of the Cabinet?

Mr. GARFIELD. I was, first, Commissioner of Corporations, beginning in March, 1904, and was four years there; I entered the Cabinet in 1907. While I was Commissioner of Corporations we began the study of the water-power conditions throughout the country.

Senator MCNARY. Mr. Garfield, I am very much interested in this history that you are giving us. Can you give the committee the terms of the lease between Mr. Thompson and the Government that was proposed?

Mr. GARFIELD. I unfortunately can not read this morning Senator MCNARY. I wondered if it was for a number of years or in fee simple or a leasehold.

you can

Mr. GARFIELD. I haven't that before me. I have a memorandum of the veto message. I do not have before me the bill, but very readily get it. It is House bill 14501, and it was March 3, 1903, that the President vetoed it.

Senator MCNARY. Mr. Chairman, I think it would be most interesting to have a copy of this bill and the President's veto in the record, and I would ask permission that it be inserted in the record.

The CHAIRMAN. Senator McNary, Suppose you take it on yourself to get that and give it to the reporter, and he will put it in with Mr. Garfield's testimony.

Mr. GARFIELD. There were later bills before the House, for instance, the James River bill, the Rainey dam bill, and one along the Mississippi River, the name of which I have forgotten. Those were also vetoed by the President, the record of those vetoes gives the reasons applicable to these particular bills. They were all along the same line of reasoning; namely, that the attempt to grant in a particular measure to a special concern or individual the right to develop and use, sell or lease the power that was developed upon

the