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Secretary FOWLER. But these estimates, Senator--what I am trying to say is that these estimates about the loss in values are estimates of the loss in paper profits, not realized losses.

Senator HARTKE. I understand. But I will try to hurry up, about two more questions here, I will try to hurry up.

Are you in position where you have to borrow money now?
Secretary FOWLER. We will have to borrow money.
Senator HARTKE. When?
Secretary FOWLER. During the fall.
Senator HARTKE. When?
Secretary FOWLER. We haven't picked the exact spot.
Senator HARTKE. Mr. Deming, you are the monetary expert.

Mr. DEMING. We will be borrowing in the first half of this fiscal year, Senator. The precise dates

Senator HARTKE. You do not need a temporary increase in the debt limit at all now, do you?

Mr. DEMING. We will need an increase in the temporary debt limit to get through fiscal 1966.

Senator HARTKE. I am talking about now. All you need now is to keep it at the present level, is that not right?

Secretary FOWLER. We will need it early in the fiscal year, Senator Hartke. We will need it because our receipts in the first 6 months of the fiscal year, July 1 until January 1, are only a percentage, 45 percent of it, roughly.

Senator HARTKE. Could we come back here really to decide that issue maybe in September to see where we are a little better? We can just extend the present temporary ceiling and not discommode the Treasury whatsoever, is that not true?

Secretary FOWLER. You would discommode the Treasury. We want to be in position to take advantage of the situations as they develop, and we want to be in a position to take care of our financing requirements.

Senator HARTKE. But you are not pressed for cash now. You already testified to that.

Secretary FOWLER. We are not.
Senator HARTKE. You are not pressed to borrow money now.

Secretary FoWLER. It moves out awfully fast, Senator Hartke. The amount that moves out of the cashbox each month is a very appreciable amount, and the revenues that come in can fall far short of that particularly in these early 6 months.

Senator HARTKE. Let me say to you, Mr. Secretary, I am going to vote with you, but I am very thoroughly convinced that you do not need it. But I do not think the debt limit has much effect upon the overall condition of the country anyway, and I kind of agree with Senator McCarthy we ought to have a temporary ceiling.

How big was it?
Senator McCARTHY. I do not care, $350 billion.

Senator HARTKE. I am going to accede to my chairman's wishes and cease and desist.

Senator BENNETT. Mr. Chairman, I was called out of the room when my turn came, and I am not going to keep the Secretary very long, but in his questioning Senator Douglas got some figures out of a House report that showed the total assets of the Federal Government at something like $324 billion, and a current debt of about $310 billion.

Senator Douglas. That was as of June 30 last year.

Senator BENNETT. No matter what the date was.

There are two things I think we ought to get into the record. Did these include the contingent debt of the United States?

Secretary FOWLER. I am not familiar with the report, Senator Bennett. Senator Douglas had it, and therefore I cannot answer questions concerning it.

Senator BENNETT. Does the $310 billion debt include the contingent debt of the United States?

Secretary FOWLER. No, it does not.

Senator BENNETT. When the Federal Government-and Senator Douglas made it clear he considered this an asset value that he quoted as being very conservative-does the Federal Government charge off any depreciation or obsolescence on any of its assets?

Secretary FOWLER. No, sir.
Senator BENNETT. It does not.

He made the point that with the $14 billion surplus, if this were a private business, it would be a flourishing operation. Do you know of any private business that does not charge off depreciation and obsolescence?

Secretary FOWLER. Our experience in the Treasury indicates they are all rather avid to charge off.

Senator BENNETT. I would think so.
I made the record that I wanted to make.

Senator DOUGLAS. Since the Senator from Utah has raised this, I ask unanimous consent that salient pages of the House committee document, pages 1 and 11, be included in the record, and a note which gives the accounting practices followed in making the appraisals.

Senator Long. Without objection so ordered. (The documents referred to follow:)

FEDERAL REAL AND PERSONAL PROPERTY INVENTORY REPORT

(CIVILIAN AND MILITARY) OF THE U.S. GOVERNMENT, COVERING ITS PROPERTIES LOCATED IN THE UNITED STATES, IN THE TERRI-TORIES, AND OVERSEAS, AS OF JUNE 30, 1964

PART I

INTRODUCTION

This Federal property inventory report represents a compilation of assigned values of real and personal property owned or controlled by the Federal Govern. ment, located throughout the world, as of June 30, 1964. This comprehensive recording of assets of the Government is the 10th such report issued by the House Committee on Government Operations. Since 1955, the committee has issued, on an annual basis, inventory reports of federally owned real and personal properties on a fiscal year basis.

The committee staff assigned to this project, aided by the experience of Government department and agency representatives, has explored inventory accounting systems employed by the Federal Government in an effort to include all assets of a department and to bring records covering such assets under accounting control. A comparison of our previous inventory reports, as listed below, shows clearly the great progress which has been made in improving accounting methods and recordkeeping operations employed in recording the amounts of real and personal property owned or controlled by the Federal Government. Constant attention is being focused on accurate and complete accounting of these assets. The utilization of up-to-date accounting systems, motivated by stimulated interest in property inventories, has strengthened the efforts of Government departments and agencies in bringing inventories under accounting control.

This progress, which is being observed by the public, Members of the Congress, and especially by the membership of this committee, has been encouraging.

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GRAND RECAPITULATION OF THE PERSONALTY AND REALTY ASSETS OF THE

U.S. GOVERNMENT AGENCIES, OFFICES, AND ESTABLISHMENTS OF THE GovERNMENT, INCLUDING THE DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE, AS OF JUNE 30, 1964, 1963, AND 1962

(In millions of dollars]

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i Computed at estimated present-day evaluation.

NOTE.-All properties reported are shown in gross amounts without deductions for allowances for losses and depreciation. Only wholly Government-owned corporation assets and other wholly owned assets are included. Assets held under trust arrangements and interagency assets, including public debt securities owned, are excluded. The properties have been valued at acquisition cost or estimated cost when the actual costs were not known. Public domain, donated property and properties under supervision of the Architect of the Capitol are shown at estimated present-day values. Properties acquired as gifts or without cost to the Government are shown at estimated present-day values.

Senator Long. The committee had an executive session planned, so I will now declare this hearing closed. I would like to ask the Secretary of the Treasury to stick around a moment or two because there is a matter we wanted to ask him about which is not relevant to this particular bill.

(Whereupon, at 12:05 p.m., the committee proceeded into executive session.)

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(THIS REPORT HAS NOT BEEN CONSIDERED BY THE SENATE COMMITTEE ON FINANCE. IT IS BEING PRINTED

FOR INFORMATIONAL PURPOSES ONLY)

FEBRUARY 2, 1965

Printed for the use of the Committee on Finance

U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE

WASHINGTON : 1965

12-663

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DOC. EX. PO

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