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Dr. HOLLOMON. I have not reviewed it in the last few months. I had some knowledge of it some time ago.

Senator ANDERSON. What was the attitude of the Weather Bureau? Dr. HOLLOMON. My understanding is that the Weather Bureau was not very bullish with respect to weather modification.

Senator ANDERSON. Not very bullish?

Dr. HOLLOMON. That is right. Mr. Chairman, I also would like to point out that the Weather Bureau is not the same as it was in 1951. Senator ANDERSON. They change like the weather

Dr. HOLLOMON. Sometimes change is desirable.

Senator ANDERSON. When did you reach this decision to change? When the two reports came out?

Dr. HOLLOMON. No, sir. I would like to make my own personal identification with the subject clear. Sitting on my left is a gentleman named Vince Schaefer. I worked with Dr. Schaefer and Dr. Vonnegut for 3 years on this problem and personally wrote a number of scientific papers about weather modification.

I think they will so assure you, if you ask them whether I personally have been bullish on the subject for 15 years.

Senator ANDERSON. You worked with Dr. Vonnegut and Dr. Schaefer in 1951?

Mr. HOLLOMON. Right. This was one of the most exciting experiments that I knew about. We worked with them on this subject.

Now to get to your question more explicitly. About 3 years ago I, with the assistance of Dr. White, initiated a study of all of the experiments that have been done to enhance orographic precipitation, that is, precipitation that occurs on the less side of mountains. This was done at my request.

This analysis was accomplished internally and indicated that there was very good likelihood that there could be substantial increase in precipitation in such cloud systems. As a result of that analysis and several other things the Interagency Committee on Atmospheric Science, of which I am chairman, asked for the formation of a Commission which the National Science Foundation put into effect in order to lay the groundwork for a new program.

This was at our request over 2 years ago.

Senator ANDERSON. I don't particularly mind what an agency does as long as we get it done but it does seem to be back where it stood 15 years ago.

Dr. HOLLOMON. I think one also has to take account of the past, Mr. Chairman. I think all of us learn by experience. I also feel it is perfectly clear now to those who were involved in the ESSA organization-Dr. White can speak for himself that we believe that not only by increasing precipitation but in changing the energetics of large-scale storms that there is a good possibility with appropriate research we can make substantial modifications of the weather, both locally and, hopefully, on a large scale.

Senator ANDERSON. I think that is a very important aspect. In your testimony before the Senate Commerce Committee you said the ESSA has a large core of scientists and engineers numbering approximately 200 with special capabilities in the field of weather modification and related areas. Can you furnish the names of the 200 people?

Dr. HOLLOMON. We will be glad to furnish that for the record.

(The document referred to follows:)

ESSA SCIENTISTS AND ENGINEERS WITH SPECIAL CAPABILITIES IN WEATH MODIFICATION AND RELATED AREAS

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Senator ANDERSON. What do you mean by related areas? They are having a hearing in the Foreign Relations Committee on related

areas.

Dr. WHITE. As indicated in Dr. Holloman's testimony, Mr. Chairman, those aspects of atmospheric science research which are very closely related to weather modification were included in those figures. We will be very pleased to supply the list of names to you.

Dr. HOLLOMAN. By related areas we mean things such as general dynamics of the atmosphere, and the physics and chemistry of what goes on in the atmosphere.

Senator ANDERSON. You mentioned hurricanes?

Dr. HOLLOMAN. Yes, sir.

Senator ANDERSON. Í remember Dr. Shaefer, who rode a little airplane in a hurricane off the coast of Florida the other day and had a very interesting experience. Has anybody in ESSA done that? Dr. HOLLOMAN. Yes, sir.

Senator ANDERSON. How did they come out?

Dr. HOLLOMAN. We have had interesting experiences. We have a regular program in cooperation with the Navy. We use research aircraft of our own and aircraft of the Navy and Air Force for flying through storms.

We have a procedure for hurricane seeding operations which specifies that seeding may take place only when the hurricanes are more than a certain distance away from the land since, we are not too knowledgeable about what goes on, we then proceed to seed the hurricanes.

In the last couple of years, we have not had hurricanes in the qualified seeding area. The last one, I think, was about 3 years ago. We have an area marked out which, essentially, says that if the hurricane

is less than 36 hours from the land we will not seed it. But there have been experiments in which the evidence as reported by the National Academy of Science as well as our own scientists is that significant changes in hurricane structure occurred simultaneously with the seeding.

Now the problem here, as in weather modification generally, is to be sure what you did would not have happened had you not done it. The evidence on that score is not clear.

Senator ANDERSON. Since 1957, the date of the issue of the President's Advisory Committee on Weather Control, what significant technical contributions has the Weather Bureau achieved in the field of weather modification applied to increasing the water supply?

Dr. HOLLOMON. I don't remember the figure exactly, but I think it is something like 35 or 40 percent of the water falling on the east coast of the United States, Atlantic region, South Atlantic region, originates from storms which are associated with large tropical disturbances such as hurricanes.

They are a major source of the water of the Eastern and Southeastern part of this country. This is one of the real problems. Hurricanes do affect in a very substantial way the water resources of this country. I don't remember the exact figure but, as I remember, it is something like 35 percent.

This raises the point that you enanot separate the problem of interfering with severe storms wholly from the problem of enhancing the water supply. They are related.

Senator ANDERSON. There is a question of emphasis. I realize that the scientific work is to be done by the Weather Bureau. Among the people in Government should be someone interested in trying to increase the supply of water.

Dr. HOLLOMON. I agree with that.

Snator ANDERSON. If you do not increase the supply, several areas in the east will suffer.

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Dr. HOLLOMON. I do not disagree with that statement at all. Senator ANDERSON. At a time when Senator Case and I went up. New York City nobody worried about the water supply of New York City. Now you can say, without too much difficulty, that New York does not have a chance to get the water it needs.

There has been a change and there should be some recognition of that.

Dr. HOLLOMON. Mr. Chairman, you raised earlier the issue which I think is appropriate, the fact that the Weather Bureau was not enthusiastic about this problem several years ago. I also testified before. I think it is important now, that in a sense the assignment of the responsibility for applied research and development to the National Science Foundation did in fact discourage other agencies from pursuing this activity.

I really think that was the case. This is not to say that what NSF did do was not important because I think it was very important, but I think it did discourage some other agencies.

Senator ANDERSON. Did it discourage the Bureau of Reclamation? Dr. HOLLOMON. No, sir.

Senator ANDERSON. Isn't it strange, they let the Bureau of Reclamation go ahead and not the other bureaus or did the Bureau of Reclamation want to increase the water supply?

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