STATEMENT OF MAX EDWARDS, LEGISLATIVE COUNSEL, DEPART MENT OF THE INTERIOR; ACCOMPANIED BY DR. ARCHIE B. GOODMAN

Mr. EDWARDS. Mr. Chairman, members of the committee, I am here with Dr. Archie B. Goodman, who is the coordinator of atmospheric water resources for the Bureau of Reclamation in Washington.

Senator ANDERSON. We are glad to have you here also, Dr. Goodman.

Mr. EDWARDS. Mark Twain, in a speech in New York City to the New England Society on December 22, 1876, is supposed to have quipped, "Everybody talks about the weather, but nobody does any thing about it."

A newspaper reporter named Charles Dudley Warner claimed that he said it first but nobody has ever paid much attention to him. He even wrote an editorial in the Hartford (Conn.) Courant 14 years later complaining: "I guess it's no use, they still believe Mark Twain said it despite all my assurances that it was Warner."

Regardless of who said it, of course, they were both wrong. We are doing something about the weather, and this challenge to successfully modify our atmospheric water resources appears truly as significant and exciting as anything on the horizon of the 20th century.

I wish to thank the committee for allowing me the privilege of appearing before you here in my home State of New Mexico, but more particularly for permitting me to be briefly identified with the goals of a program which will be of such tremendous benefit to all mankind. I am confident that this is the kind of a challenge Senator Anderson enjoys as chairman of this committee, and I am further confident that his pursuit and tenacity will place weather modification alongside the other great legislative milestones he has sponsored in the field of natural resources.

Now, S. 2875, being considered by this committee, was introduced by Senator Anderson, for himself and 20 other Members of the Senate from both political parties, including Senator Bible and Senator Jordan. In its broadest terms the bill directs the Secretary of the Interior to formulate and carry out a comprehensive program of research and operations directed toward greater yields of water from our atmos pheric resources throughout the entire Nation.

Science has made long and rapid strides in the field of weather modification and most of the scoffers have been silenced, but ultimate suc cess will be buttressed on a foundation of fundamental knowledge that can be realized only through scientific research of the complex physi cal and chemical workings of the atmosphere. This bill is designed to accomplish that objective.

The hopes of President Johnson were expressed in his message to the Congress on weather modification, February 21 of this year, and I quote:

Highly encouraging steps are being taken toward establishing safe and effec tive programs for modifying weather. We can now begin to see the day when such programs may become operationally feasible. This is an exciting and encouraging development *** not only for Americans, but for men everywhere.

S. 2875 clearly and specifically states that nothing in the bill is intended to give the Department of the Interior increased authority over water research or meteorological programs of other Federal agencies,

nor does the bill in any way limit their programs or projects. My Department's first concern and interest is in developing the capability of influencing precipitation, increasing, decreasing or relocating it, because it is an essential part of our responsibility in managing the water resources of the Nation. As this distinguished committee knows so well, almost every bureau or almost every bureau in the Department of the Interior has some responsibility to actively participate in water resource programs, and our ability to successfully carry out the comprehensive program called for in this bill will better enable us to meet those responsibilities.

Our Bureau of Reclamation first became interested in weather modification in 1947 because of its inseparable relation to the Bureau's primary objective: reclaiming lands of limited moisture. The program's initial appropriation of $100,000 in 1962 has been expanded to almost $3 million for 1966, and with the guidance of this committee we expect the program to grow according to the demands of the Nation. And these demands will not be limited to the supply and management of water in our Western States. As a nation, we are learning the hard way that even in areas which have enjoyed a traditional abundance of water, drought and pollution have no geographic boundaries.

The bill before your committee, of course, does identify a number of serious problems relating to property rights, personal injury, liability, indemnity, and licensing. You don't have to be a lawyer to recognize the complexity of the problems which are bound to arise from our efforts to modify the weather. In this connection, I might add that the Department has presently under consideration a number of proposals for studying the inevitable legal problems which we will face as the program moves forward.

I wish again to thank the chairman and the members of the committee for this opportunity to be here, and to commend you for your interest in what surely will become one of the most important scientific programs of our time. Thank you.

Senator ANDERSON. Thank you, very much, Mr. Edwards. Do you think that this is a good undertaking for this part of the world? Mr. EDWARDS. I certainly do, sir, absolutely.

Senator ANDERSON. And the Department of the Interior supports this action?

Mr. EDWARDS. Yes, sir; we thoroughly support the objectives of this bill.

Senator ANDERSON. Senator Bible.

Senator BIBLE. The only question I would ask Mr. Edwards or Dr. Goodman is to give me their thoughts as to the proper mission for the Bureau of Reclamation within the Interior Department and its relation to the National Science Foundation. How do you see the loads of these two agencies?

Mr. EDWARDS. I will comment on that question because I think it is very appropriate and very interesting. If I don't answer it to your satisfaction, I will ask Dr. Goodman to say something.

The Department of the Interior recognizes its primary role as the manager of the water resources of the Nation, As I said in my statement, in almost every bureau there is a water management responsibility. It is not just limited to the Western States. The Bureau of

Reclamation's role and responsibility would initially, of course, be to increase the precipitation to allow more water in the reservoirs which we have constructed and will probably construct in the future. We are not concerned directly with hail suppression; we are not interested or directly concerned with that. The primary mission of the Bureau of Reclamation is with control of precipitation. We think that is a heavy responsibility. We think that hurricane studies may better be the responsibility of the Navy and that weather prediction remain at the Department of Commerce. I don't know that this is a satisfactory answer to the question or not.

Senator BIBLE. Well, I think it helps develop the difference in the missions as you envision them from a departmental viewpoint in the Department of the Interior. Is the jurisdiction of the Bureau of Reclamation limited to the 17 Western States?

Mr. EDWARDS. Yes, sir, it is, but not in their research programs or water resource management responsibilities.

Senator BIBLE. Well, if some of our New England neighbors were interested, as they might very well be because of the drought conditions in that part of the country, what could you do to help them? What if the New England States were to ask the Bureau of Reclamation for a research project or a cloud seeding project; would the Bureau of Reclamation supply it?

Mr. EDWARDS. I think the Bureau would be able to assist them; yes, sir.

Senator BIBLE. I was interested as to the overall jurisdiction of the Bureau of Reclamation. I thought it was limited to the 17 Western States. Do you think not?

Mr. EDWARDS. I think not. I think the Congress has given the Bureau broader responsibilities in this particular area.

Senator BIBLE. Do you have any comment as to the money scope of this proposal? You recognize that the authorization in the bill is proposed at $35 million for the first year, $50 million for the second year, not to exceed $70 million in the third year and such sums thereafter as may be necessary. Are those figures realistic?

Mr. EDWARDS. Well, I think it might be premature for me to have to answer that but I would ask Dr. Goodman if he might have a

comment.

Senator BIBLE. Doctor, we'd be very happy to get your views on this.

Dr. GOODMAN. Thank you, very much, Senator. I certainly want to concur in the observations of Max Edwards here on the role of the Department of the Interior and the Bureau of Reclamation. With respect to the amount of funds required to carry on a nationwide program to develop our atmospheric water resources, I think it is logical to expect the need for funds in the maximum amounts contemplated in this bill. These amounts are necessary in order to make substantial progress over the next 8 to 10 years, and that is the period being considered in this bill. Expenditures on the order of $1 to $2 billion would seem to be indicated. The product or results of such research would be valued in the billions of dollars.

Senator BIBLE. Well, I am sure that is to be deductive and I recognize how difficult it is to put either time limits or money amounts on this but if I understand you correctly, you say somewhere in the

neighborhood of $1 or $2 billion to be spent in 10 years would lead us to some startling breakthroughs?

Dr. GOODMAN. That would be our objective. It should be a national objective; yes, sir.

Senator BIBLE. Would this $1 to $2 billion be moneys expended only by the Bueau of Reclamation or is this the total pricetag for all the commissions?

Dr. GOODMAN. Estimates are that it might be the total pricetag for all agencies operating in this mission-oriented field of atmospherie water resources. I would like to add here at this point that there is no significant conflict among the mission-oriented agencies in carrying out these programs. For example, we are cooperating very well with the National Science Foundation. As a matter of fact, the Bureau of Reclamation program is today where it is for two very good reasons: One, the strong support of this committee; and second, the fine basic research that has been carried on over the years by the National Science Foundation. Most of the places where we are carrying out our field projects have been selected on the basis of reports prepared for the National Science Foundation. And I would like to commend the Science Foundation for its program. It is cooperating fully with the Bureau of Reclamation program. The same thing can be said about the Department of Agriculture with its lightning suppression work and their hail suppression work. We are cooperating with all agencies and we have a feedback of information among all the agencies.

Senator BIBLE. I appreciate the answers that you have given, Mr. Edwards and Dr. Goodman. I think it is important in building a record on this bill to nail down as best we can some type of a dollar figure and some type of time limit. I am prompted to do that by the experiences that we have had in my own State with the Desert Research Institute, where they are doing remarkable work, I believe, but they do have some problems in staffing and it is very difficult to get manpower and men of scientific know-how to break old ties and come aboard, to use the colloquial expression, unless they have some idea of what the tenure is going to be. This presents a problem and it becomes a Federal responsibility, as I see it. We should not encourage the universities in these cooperative programs unless we are ready to back it up for a definite period of years because otherwise it is unfair to the university with whom the Federal Government is dealing.

Dr. GOODMAN. I am delighted to hear you bring this into the record, Senator Bible. As you will recall when the hearings were held by this committee in 1964, the Commissioner of Reclamation, Floyd E. Dominy, in essence, said to the committee, "Don't give me this new expanding program, unless you are willing to support it on a longterm basis and not jump funds up and down from year to year." We plan to carry out this program through such organizations as the ever-excellent Desert Research Institute, the University of Wyoming, and other areas. In order for them to bring teams together to carry on this program, they have to give some assurance to the people coming in that they are going to be there for 5 to 10 years or longer.

Senator Anderson's own State is now beginning to assemble teams to operate in this field. With regard to manpower, certainly there

is always a shortage of top-grade talent. We believe that such organizations as New Mexico State University can, in time, bring together a very excellent team along the lines of the Desert Research Institute in your own State. The same thing can be said of a number of States in the West.

Senator BIBLE. Thank you, very much, Doctor. Thank you, Mr. Edwards.

Senator ANDERSON. Senator Jordan.

Senator JORDAN. Mr. Edwards, most of the witnesses who testified on this bill devoted their attention to the technological, scientific, and engineering aspects. In your statement you bring in the inevitable legal problems. You make a statement:

In this connection, I might add, that the Department has presently under consideration a number of proposals for studying the inevitable legal problems which we will face as the program moves forward.

Now, what are the nature of those problems as you see them, the legal problems?

Mr. EDWARDS. Well, problems of liability, for example, of contractors that the Department might be dealing with. They are hesitant to expand their operation unless they have some protection either from an insurance indemnity, which would be highly expensive, and in turn. be more expensive for the Federal Government, and also problems of personal liability in conducting the experiments as they go along. But this is a very appropriate question in view of the fact that right now the Secretary of the Interior is negotiating with several universities to come up with a study which will be the basis for further work that we will be doing as to what solution we might have for the legal problems involved. Traditionally, as you probably know, and I am criticizing the legal profession, lawyers tend to lag far behind actuality and it won't be until the accidents happen that lawyers will decide that they should get together and do something about it. Now, we are trying to initiate this study so that we will have the answers before the cart breaks down.

Senator JORDAN. As we move forward in this program and we do, in fact, modify the weather, isn't it quite likely that as one area benefits another area is likely to allege that "we were shortchanged because of the rain that would have come to our area," and as a practicing lawyer what do you see as a remedy that might be offered these people who allege damage by reason of man-regulated weather?

Mr. EDWARDS. Well, I think the answer is in highly sophisticating our technique so that we are actually controlling or modifying precipitation by increasing and decreasing it. However, although we have relocated it we can make mistakes by our own negligence. If you and I were trying to bring rainfall on Senator Anderson's property, we might accidentally rain out a ball game or flood another's land, and experience some liability. I can well recall back in 1947 when I had just joined law school at the University of Arizona and there was great talk about weather modification. We had a 10-minute break between the classes and we would stand in front of the law building there arguing about liability in cases just like this. It seemed to me at that time there was a law review article from Stanford University which was interested in trying to anticipate what these legal problems would be. And I think if we go to work now and try to formulate what the ex