upon this nucleus that the needed manpower must grow. Additions will come through involvement of others in these activities, especially that of advanced students in the universities. Others will be drawn into the field from bordering disciplines.

The interdisciplinary character of the undertaking is quite evident, the principal ones being: meteorology, engineering, and cloud physics. I place cloud physics last, even though it undergirds the whole field, simply because, for the time being, the most needed development is in the other two sectors.

The role of the Bureau of Reclamation in starting programs in the several western universities and in supporting active field experimentation in the watersheds of concern to it is indeed commendable and serves the double purpose of attracting promising talent to the field as well as advancing our knowledge. It should be noted that they started their program when the climate was less optimistic that at present.

Conclusions. I shall briefly summarize my thinking on the subject of this bill. It seems that the technical objectives of the bill are well aimed and that major, coordinated Federal support of weather modification research and operational projects is not only timely but overdue. I suggest that coordination of such a program should be exercised by an interagency coordinating committee, and that regulation of all weather modification activities should be done by an independent board. Specific suggestions for obtaining the technical objectives of the bill include provision for matching funds with local water users for operational programs where appropriate, and research emphasis on large-scale physical evaluation programs. The emphasis should be placed on making the fullest use of existing skills and facilities rather than developing duplicate or competing installations.

In conclusion, I want to thank this committee for the opportunity to express the convictions I have developed over the past 15 years and to present my ideas concerning the form which a national weather modification program should take.

Senator ANDERSON. Mr. Elliott, I like your presentation very much. The thing I like about it best is that when you found something you did not like in the bill you proceeded to suggest language of your own. We may not like your language either but it is a starting point from which to work something out. I appreciate it very much. It is a very good idea and we will benefit from it. Do you have any rough ideas as to the possible precipitation increase in the San Diego-Los Angeles area?

Mr. ELLIOTT. The San Gabrielle watershed, which is controlled by the Los Angeles County Flood Control District, is an area in which we are now and have been conducting a program for a number of years, actually serving as consultants to the Los Angeles County Flood Control.

It is a very interesting area. We have been employing an evaluation technique there which is rather new and involves obtaining hourly measurements upwind in the area.

Senator ANDERSON. You do think there has been an effect from this cloud seeding?

Mr. ELLIOTT. Yes, sir, I do. As a matter of fact it is more like 20 or 30 percent and I believe that the mountains in southern and central

California are peculiarly located in a climatic region where weather modification is actually more effective than it is in the higher mountain

areas.

Senator ANDERSON. We value very much the experience you have brought to this hearing today. We appreciate it and thank you for it very sincerely.

Mr. ELLIOTT. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Senator ANDERSON. We meet again at 2 o'clock.

(Whereupon, at 12:30 p.m. the subcommittee recessed, to reconvene at 2 p.m. the same day.)

AFTER RECESS

(The subcommittee reconvened at 2 p.m., Senator Frank E. Moss (Utah) presiding.)

Senator Moss. The subcommittee will come to order. Senator Anderson unfortunately cannot be with us this afternoon. We will continue with the hearing which has been very interesting and very productive up to now and I am sure the witness this afternoon will add to the fine information that has been provided to us.

Our first witness this afternoon is Harold Wilm, chairman of the policy committee of the Interstate Conference of Water Problems, Syracuse, N.Y.

We are happy to have you, Mr. Wilm.
You may proceed, sir.

STATEMENT OF HAROLD G. WILM, ASSOCIATE DEAN AND DIRECTOR, THE WATER RESOURCES INSTITUTE, SYRACUSE, N.Y.

Mr. WILM. Mr. Chairman, my name is Harold G. Wilm. I am associate dean and director of the Water Resources Institute, State Uni versity of New York, located at Syracuse, N.Y., and also a member of the executive committee of the Interstate Conference on Water Problems.

Speaking for the conference, our executive committee acts in response to resolutions adopted by the whole conference at regulatory scheduled national meetings.

As you are aware, the conference consists of one official member from each of our States; each is an official at a comparatively high level of State government. With respect to the pending bill, S. 2875, the executive committee has no specific resolution upon which to base a statement. I can, however, express the great interest of the conference and its member States in assisting to alleviate water shortages by all feasible means including, if possible, weather and climate modification. I would like to express the hope that, in implementing S. 2875, the Secretary of the Interior will actively enlist the advice and help of State governments and of research organizations and institutions within the States. Because the Secretary is the Chairman of the President's Water Resources Council established under the Water Resources Planning Act of 1963, I am confident that he will employ this new mechanism for achieving coordination and coopera tion among the Federal agencies that are interested in water problems, as well as working with the States and interstate bodies.

I might interject that I have been noticing that other witnesses before this committee have, in general, neglected to mention the Presi

dent's Water Resources Council as a mechanism for achieving interagency cooperation. It seems to me that this is a very excellent mechanism. The authority for such activities is well embodied in sections 101 and 102 of the bill before you.

Now I should like to step out of my role as a representative of the interstate conference and to speak as an individual and as director of the college of forestry, water resources institute. As you know, we in New York are very deeply concerned over water shortages caused by the drought of the past 4 years, as well as over problems of water quality and water pollution. The State itself and agencies within the State-including our water resources institute-are actively interested in any programs which may lead toward the solution of these problems. As to the bill before you, S. 2875, I might raise two specific questions. First, have the science and art of weather and climate modification yet reached a stage which would warrant such a great stepup in Federal support for research and development in weather modification from $7.2 million in fiscal year 1963 to the more than $35 million proposed by the bill to be administered by the Secretary of the Interior? Second, among the numerous Federal Cabinet members, is it logical for the Secretary of the Interior to be the administering officer?

As to the first question, up to the recent past I have entertained serious doubts. In spite of extensive research and tests of various kinds, it has still remained uncertain whether, on a practical scale, the "seeding" of various kinds of air masses can achieve favorable results. On a partly conjectural basis there would seem to me to be two major disturbing factors: (1) the air mass to be seeded must be in a condition. in which it can be made to produce precipitation, (2) the "dosage" or intensity of seeding has to be applied to the airmass in sufficient, but not too great, quantity to induce precipitation. There is no question as to the soundness of the scientific principle involved, or of its application to weather modification; the main question is one of control; if the wrong air masses are seeded, or insufficient dosage is applied, little or no effect may be expected. If, on the other hand, the dosage is excessive in any particular air mass, it is possible that precipitation may actually be suppressed or the clouds partially dispersed. I might interject at this point that in earlier years I put in quite a lot of time, myself, in making studies of various cloud-seeding tests. In one particular set of tests I studied, including quite a large number of separate attempts, there was a distribution of apparent effects of the cloud seeding from quite strongly minus to quite strongly plus which, to a scientist, would normally infer complete random distribution of the effects with a mean somewhere around zero. Even then, much more so than now, I am led to suspect that that greater variation in both directions and magnitude of the apparent effects may have been at least partly due to the inability of the people doing the job to predict what dosages should be applied to these particular air

masses.

In some cases they may have gotten no effect because they put in too little. In other cases, they may have actually suppressed precipitation. This means, of course, a much more precise knowledge is needed of the kind of clouds that are passing by that you attempt to seed, the concentration of ice particles in them, and from such information the intensity of dosage needed to produce precipitation.

Based on this argument, then, we need to acquire much more knowledge of air mass characteristics and behavior, and methods for appraising these characteristics, both basic and applied, done by many agencies and coordinated in some effective manner.

Two circumstances lead me to favor passage of this bill providing for stepped-up Federal support and leadership in weather and climate modification. One is the favorable, though conservative recommendations of the National Science Foundation's special commission, and of the National Academy of Sciences Panel on Weather and Climate Modification. The first recommendation of the National Academy Panel (p. 22 of their vol. I: Summary and Recommendations) calls for the increase of financial support to at least $30 million per year. This, of course, conforms quite closely to the first-year level of authorization recommended in your bill. The other circumstance is the very difficult experience undergone by New York State and the other States of the Delaware River Basin, with the effects of the persistent drought in that basin last year.

Several times during late 1965, air masses traversing this general region dropped rain elsewhere than the headwaters of the Delaware River Basin, upstream of the greatly depleted reservoirs of New York City. I am sure you can visualize the very weird situation we were going through, rationing water violently in New York City so that they were using actually a quarter billion gallons per day less of water than they ordinarily used, and intentionally holding back water in the New York City reservoir rather than releasing it down the river in order to hold the salt back at Philadelphia.

And in the midst of all these measures, with the New York City reservoir standing very low, only one-third filled, with great banks of mud showing above the little remaining pools, at that very time, in one commission meeting, the district engineer in charge of the Army flood control reservoirs down in that region asked for permission to release water from a reservoir quite low down in the Delaware River Basin because the meteorological situation had altered it to such an extent that they were afraid that possibly there might be floods and they would have too much water in the reservoir to control the floods. So, in the Adirondacks there was rain, in the lower Delaware there was rain, but above the New York City reservoirs there was hardly any rain at all. One is led to conjecture whether, with more comprehensive knowledge of principles and techniques, it might have been possible to induce more rain to fall on this strategic watershed.

Now for a few words on jurisdiction. As a principle, it is my general view-shared, I am sure, by the members of our interstate conference on water problems-that jurisdictional decisions in matters such as this should be left to the wisdom of the legislative and executive branches of the Federal Government. As a suggestion, however, it does seem appropriate for the Secretary of the Interior to direct this program because of his position as chairman of the President's Water Resources Council. It is also appropriate because the Department of the Interior has a broad understanding of the practical problems of weather modification and the dynamic need for their solution. The Department already is conducting a program of applied research, through the Bureau of Reclamation. As to the more basic and esoteric aspects of weather research, I am confident that the Secretary will

enlist the services of other organizations and agencies, as provided in title I of the bill before you.

Mr. Chairman, I have been listening with great interest to the witnesses before me. It may be noticed that my statement intentionally contains no reference to sections 201 and 202 of the bill, to provide for licensing and indemnification. While really we have no recommendations in this respect at all, I might comment that it is my own very deep feeling that judgments or decisions on matters, policy matters, of very great import to many different kinds of people, are best vested in a group of men rather than a single man. By similar arguments, the regulations of the activities of a great many people perhaps may be best handled by a group of men rather than a single

man.

Again, although I have not included it in my testimony, it occurs to me to suggest that the committee may wish to propose the President's Water Resources Council, a body, a group of men rather than a single man as a controlling body. This kind of arrangement provides not only breadth of wisdom, but by bringing an agency to bear on policy and establishing regulations, it tends to take off the tremendous burdensome feeling of responsibility in applying regulations to people whose whole lives are affected by the decision.

It has been a pleasure to have the privilege of expressing interest in S. 2875, as well as endorsement of the provisions of the bill for greatly increased support of such a comprehensive program by the Federal Government, through both direct and cooperative research and other activities.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Senator Moss. Thank you, Dean Wilm. We appreciate very much your coming to share this statement with us and make our record.

You, as many other witnesses have done, have referred to the figures in the bill as an amount of money that we appropriate.

You, of course, recognize that that simply is setting a ceiling which is not to be exceeded, which is a policy that this committee follows on, I think, all legislaiton that we endorse, whether it be for the building of a dam or the purchase of a piece of land for a park or whatever else. We set a ceiling on the amount of money that can be spent.

We, of course, put that at what we think is a reasonable figure but very seldom do the Appropriations Committees of the Congress come up to our ceiling. It is usually something else, something less. So, I do not think that we need to have great worries that this program will be accelerated too fast from the present level.

I am sure the Appropriations Committees and the entire body of the Congress would look into that very carefully. The pressures on Federal expenditures and competition of all of the functions of the Federal Government are such that I think it will keep it in range.

But it is a good point to raise. This does authorize a ceiling at least of a pretty high amount to begin with.

I appreciate your comment about the problems that we have had so far in knowing whether we are seeding too much or too little. We do not know and we have made a lot of guesses which it seems to me is a good recommendation for the accelerated research that we need now so as to learn the precise amount of cloud seeding necessary for a critical cloud cover to be productive for us.