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the United States and the Senate on this
matter.

Ident with the advice and consent of the
Senate would certainly be more of a
prestige council than one which is ap- The CHAIRMAN. The question is on
pointed by the Secretary of Commerce. the amendment offered by the gentleman
19662 I believe it is more in the public interest from Illinois [Mr. SPRINGER).

that we have this particular procedure The question was taken; and the
followed, as indeed was the one which Chairman being in doubt, the Committee
you suggested initially. Neither method divided, and there were-ayes 49, noes 66.
of appointment would not diminish the
authority of the Secretary of Commerce.
Indeed, I believe we would strengthen his
hand as he tries to wrestle with this tre-
mendously important problem.

Actually we are having much ado about nothing. I hope my colleagues over on the other side will go along with us and show your confidence in the President of

Mr. SPRINGER. Mr. Chairman, I demand tellers.

Tellers were ordered, and the Chairman appointed as tellers Mr. SPRINGER and Mr. ROGERS of Florida.

The Committee again divided, and the tellers reported that there were-ayes, 80; noes, 77.

So the amendment was agreed to.

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The SPEAKER. The question is on the amendment.

The question was taken; and on a division (demanded by Mr. SPRINGER) there were-ayes 75, noes 98.

The SPEAKER. Evidently a quorum is not present.

The Doorkeeper will close the doors, the Sergeant at Arms will notify absent Members, and the Clerk will call the roll.

The question was taken; and there were-yeas 168, nays 205, not voting 59, as follows:

So the amendment was rejected.

The SPEAKER. The question is on

Mr. SPRINGER. Mr. Chairman, I the committee substitute.
object to the vote on the ground that

a quorum is not present and make the
point of order that a quorum is not
present.

The committee substitute was agreed to.

Congressional Record-House
August 31, 1966, 21349-21352

Mr. STAGGERS.

NATIONAL MOTOR VEHICLE SAFETY ADVISORY
COUNCIL

The House version requires appoint-
ment of an Advisory Council to be made
up of representatives of those industries
concerned, State and local governments,
and the general public. The Senate ver-
sion has no comparable provision. The
managers for the Senate, with some
modifications, accepted the inclusion of
an Advisory Council.

Mr. PICKLE. I thank the gentleman for yielding.

I believe the gentleman said in his statement with reference to the National Advisory Council "some changes had been made," primarily by the other body, and this was agreed to by the conference.

Mr. STAGGERS. No.

Mr. PICKLE. At least, some changes were made with respect to this Advisory Council.

19669

Mr. STAGGERS. That is correct. Mr. PICKLE. I am trying to determine what these changes were. If I read from the correct section of the conference report, section 104(a) states:

The Secretary shall establish a National Motor Vehicle Safety Advisory Council, a majority of which shall be representatives of the general public, including representatives of State and local governments, and the remainder shall include representatives of motor vehicle manufacturers, motor vehicle equipment manufacturers, and motor vehicle dealers.

Thus, the statement is made:

A majority of which shall be representatives.

A majority of how many?

Mr. STAGGERS. Of 19. The committee was expanded.

Mr. PICKLE. I do not see where this reference to 19 is made. Originally it was 13.

Mr. STAGGERS. I am sorry; that was incorrect. The figure of 19 was discussed at some length. We leave this discretionary with the Secretary. We do insist that the public have the majority.

Mr. PICKLE. The measure which affects highway safety, which was brought to the floor by another committee, had a provision of 29 members.

Mr. STAGGERS. Yes.

Mr. PICKLE. A specific number.
Mr. STAGGERS. Yes.

Mr. PICKLE. To be appointed by the President. It is a committee of some considerable standing, and I think that is fine. It seems to me that we ought to have a definite number here. This could be a majority of three or four. It says "a majority of which" and therefore you could have any number. This leaves it mighty wide open, it seems to me, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. STAGGERS. Certainly we could have a much larger group than three.

Mr. PICKLE. But it does not say that. Mr. ROGERS of Florida. Mr. Speaker, will the gentleman yield?

Mr. STAGGERS. I shall be glad to yield to the gentleman.

Mr. ROGERS of Florida. Actually, what we have said here is that there will be a council appointed by the Secretary. We have not set a specific number, but we have said that the majority must be public members. This does leave in the discretion of the Secretary as to whether it shall be a 13-man, a 19-man, or a 26man committee, but what we have insisted upon is the fact that the majority shall be public members. We have suggested in the legislation the other areas from which the appointments will come, as the gentleman will notice. There

fore we have set up the basis of the commission but left it to the discretion of the Secretary since it is an advisory committee. We have not specified that 21350 it must be 12. It may be that he will want to put various industry people on this council. He may want to put some automobile dealers on it, because they do have an interest in it. He may want to put a used-car dealer on it. However, if he puts these people on, then he must put a like number of public members on it so that there will be a majority of public members.

Mr. PICKLE. The same argument could be made with respect to the highway safety measure in which they say 19 members. On the basis of this language, you probably would have at least five members.

Mr. ROGERS of Florida. Yes.

Mr. PICKLE. I think it would be the intent of this Congress that you will have more than five members, because this is supposed to cut across the board in a broad field. Five is a limitation. Would you not say that it was your intent to have at least 15 members?

Mr. ROGERS of Florida. I think it was the intent of the Congress that we have more than five, because we have listed some people that certainly ought to be considered for membership, but we have not tied the hands of the Secretary as to how many he should have on it. It is certainly the intent that it be a reasonable membership to accomplish and make up a proper advisory committee. That is the intent of the whole Advisory Council. It is to make it a useful tool for the Secretary in setting standards.

Mr. PICKLE. I will say to the gentleman that this seems to me to be a glaring weakness in the report in that you do not specify the number of the advisory committee, which is something fundamental.

Mr. ROGERS of Florida. If the gentleman will permit me to say so, I will disagree with him very definitely, because if we were to say that there should be only 13, as we originally intended, then you will have groups coming in that want to be mentioned and represented and perhaps should be. What we have done is to take a reasonable course, listing people who ought to be considered for membership, and leaving at the discretion of the Secretary the right to expand on it.

Mr. PICKLE. It seems to me that the gentleman is making an argument which is just the opposite of the point he is trying to make. If you put a specific limitation on it, then he will appoint that many and no more.

Mr. ROGERS of Florida. It may be that the Secretary feels he wants certain ones on it, and we do not want to do anything that will restrict him. He may want a number of automobile men on it and some used-car people on it and some truck equipment manufacturers. We do not know yet who will be helpful to him in this advisory capacity. This allows him the flexibility of doing whatever is necessary and appropriate for an advisory committee.

Mr. PICKLE. Mr. Speaker, I think this is a deficiency and it ought to be definitely stated as to the number that should be on this Advisory Council.

Mr. SPRINGER.

The other major difference involves the Advisory Council which was worked out in the Commerce Committee and accepted by the House. No similar provision had been considered by the other body. I know that the Members of this House are fully aware that I advocated an Advisory Council appointed by the President of the United States with the advice and counsel of the Senate.

The House did not see fit to accept my recommendation in this regard. It did, however, provide an Advisory Council which in its main provisions was adequate and highly useful. The Advisory Council provided in the conference report is not what I would want it to be. It leaves entirely too much to the discretion of the Secretary as to its makeup and its functions. I do not feel, however, that legislation as important and farreaching as this National Traffic and Motor Vehicle Safety Act should be jeopardized because of the relative weakness of this one feature.

To oppose it because of this one weakness would be a disservice to the country. 21351 I am hopeful that the Secretary of Com

merce or the Secretary of Transportation, as the case may be, will read carefully the hearings and other legislative history and will make every effort to create an Advisory Council which is strong, independent, realistic, and truly constructive to the purposes of this act. With this slight reservation and this admonition I endorse and support the acceptance of this conference report.

Mr. ROGERS of Florida. Mr. Speaker, will the gentleman yield on that point? Mr. SPRINGER. Yes. I yield to the gentleman.

Mr. ROGERS of Florida. I would like to join with the gentleman from Illinois in making it very clear that we certainly did agree and insisted that this is a man

datory provision that he must consult with this advisory council before he does issue any standards at all.

Mr. SPRINGER. I think the gentleman from Florida was quite insistent on this when we had it up in our committee. It is one of the better features of the bill, because this does not give discretion to the Secretary to consult but it is mandatory. He also should receive any report from the council that they wish to make in order that he may have the advise of that council.

Mr. GROSS. Mr. Speaker, will the gentleman yield?

Mr. SPRINGER. Yes. I yield to the gentleman.

Mr. GROSS. Earlier this afternoon the gentleman from Texas [Mr. PICKLE], made a very good point that there ought to have been a limitation on the number of members on the Advisory Council. I, for one, am surprised and disappointed that the conferees came back with a report that provides an unlimited number and without any specification as to whom they may be. It may be 26 political castoffs appointed to this Council. knows?

Who

Mr. SPRINGER. May I say in answer to the gentleman that I am just as disappointed as he is. We had just one alternative offered to the conference from the other body, and that was no council at all. We either had to have this kind of council or no council at all.

And that was the only alternative which was presented to us. The reason that we took it in this form is only because we believed that a Safety Council was necessary, and if we were going to have this thing function properly we simply had to have a concern about it.

May I say in further reply to the distinguished gentleman from Iowa that even under the other plan that even if they desired to do so, we cannot keep him from doing that. This is the reason I wanted this Council appointed by the President and confirmed by the Senate, because we would have an opportunity over here to do something about it. However, this was adopted in our committee and we want to do this.

Mr. Speaker, may I say that we came back with the best compromise which we could obtain, and that is the reason this is written in this form.

Mr. Speaker, I am just as unhappy about it as the gentleman from Iowa [Mr. GROSS], but I wanted to explain to the gentleman the practical situation with which we were confronted.

Mr. GROSS. Mr. Speaker, will the gentleman yield further?

Mr. SPRINGER. I yield further to the gentleman from Iowa.

Mr. GROSS. Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the explanation of the gentleman from Illinois. I appreciate it very much for I know he has fought on this issue. Am I correct in saying that if there were 26 of them, each could be paid $100 a day?

Mr. SPRINGER. I would doubt that the Secretary would want 26. That would be a rather unwieldy number. I have been thinking that the Secretary, with the limitation we have in here-I do not see how it could be less than 9, with the various categories involved and the fact that he must appoint some and the public must be in the majoritybut I would think 9 would be the fewest but I think it would still be in the neighborhood of the figure of 9 to 15.

Mr. Speaker, I was thinking that the Secretary, with the limitation which we have in here-I do not see how it could be less than nine with the various categories involved-and the public must be in the majority-but I would think nine would be the fewest. However, I would further think that the number would still be in the neighborhood of 9 to 15.

Mr. GROSS. But, Mr. Speaker, if the gentleman will yield further, they could be paid $100 a day; is that correct?

Mr. SPRINGER. That is correct. Mr. PICKLE. Mr. Speaker, will the gentleman yield?

the gentleman's feeling that the advisory committee should consist of between 13 and 20 members, approximately?

Mr. STAGGERS. Mr. Speaker, will the gentleman from Illinois yield to me at this point?

Mr. SPRINGER. I yield to the gentleman from West Virginia for the purpose of responding to the question.

Mr. STAGGERS. Mr. Speaker, I would like to say to the gentleman from Texas that the language of the report is to the effect that the membership should be composed of a number of between 13 and 19, or some number in between. A number of other Members thought that in order to get the bill out, we should agree to this figure.

Mr. Speaker, the word "representative" means two. We have 6 different groups represented and that would mean 12. We would like for each group to have two. We discussed the numbers between 13 and 19, and that would be my understanding, if the Secretary does not add to these members with reference to the figure of somewhere in between, with which I believe we are working.

Mr. PICKLE. Mr. Speaker, I thank the gentleman from West Virginia for his comments. And, is this also the feeling and intent of the gentleman representing the minority?

Mr. SPRINGER. Does the gentleman Mr. SPRINGER. I yield to the gen- from Texas mean insofar as this comtleman from Texas.

Mr. PICKLE. Mr. Speaker, I ask for this time for the purpose of propounding to the chairman of the committee and to the gentleman representing the minority the following question:

Were there individual ideas about the number that should compose the membership of this group? The purpose under the provisions of this bill is to define the bounds within which we must operate. I do not want the committee to be so small that it would represent a small, select, closed-corporation, hip pocket type of committee, to be operated by the Secretary of Commerce solely and which would have no real meaningful effect.

Mr. Speaker, neither do I want the committee to be composed of a group so large, as I am sure the balance of the Members would not want, that it would be unwieldy, and/or that it would cost the taxpayers too much per day.

Mr. Speaker, the gentleman in the well offered an amendment in the committee which would call for the composition of the committee to consist of 13 members. This was passed by the House but was not agreed to by the other body.

Mr. Speaker, if the gentleman is talking in terms of 13 or 15 or 19, would it be

promise is concerned?

Mr. PICKLE. I mean insofar as the practical number that the Secretary should appoint should be somewhere in the neighborhood of 15?

Mr. SPRINGER. That is correct; I think in the neighborhood of 13 to 17, and I think it might be 19. I think the restriction should be put in here to the effect that you should not have more than 17 or less than 9.

Mr. PICKLE. Mr. Speaker, if the gentleman will yield further, if the gentleman will read the language, it is clearly open to interpretation as to whether it should be four or six. I believe there should be a representative group. And, if the gentleman thinks in terms of 13, or 19, as the chairman does, I will not offer motion to recommit the bill.

Mr. SPRINGER. I think the gentleman has made a good contribution. At least the Secretary is going to read the RECORD about what number we think it ought to be and I think that is about right.

Mr. PICKLE. I thank the gentleman. Mr. STAGGERS. Mr. Speaker, I yield 5 minutes to the gentleman from California [Mr. Moss).

Mr. MOSS. Mr. Speaker, this is a very significant piece of legislation. I

21352

think that the final product brought
here for consideration today should lay
to rest any allegations or charges that
the House labored less vigorously or with
less good faith than the other body.

Throughout the hearings on this legis-
lation and the lengthy process of mark-
up, I believe that every member of the
committee represented in his judgment
the public interest and the interest of
his district and that is the appropriate
role to fulfill.

I think that there was at all times in the conference an overriding concern on the part of every member of the conference from both Houses on both sides of the aisle to improve and strengthen the legislation in order that it better serve the purposes of the American motoring public.

We were mindful of the sensitive nature of a very important basic industry. I believe a fine balance was achieved in that conference committee.

We had a considerable amount of discussion over the numbers of persons who should constitute an advisory committee. This was a very difficult subject for the committee, with the other body not favoring any kind of an advisory committee, and I believe the balance here again achieved is very much in the public interest.

Clearly, they do not want the Secretary to appoint a body so large as to be unwieldy or so small as to be unrepresentative.

House Committee Report

House Report 1776, Pages 19, 20, 46, and 47

NATIONAL MOTOR VEHICLE SAFETY ADVISORY COUNCIL

Section 104 of the reported bill creates a National Motor Vehicle Safety Advisory Council consisting of 13 members. The members are to be appointed by the Secretary, and he shall designate the chairman. Members of the Council are to be chosen as follows: Three representing motor vehicle manufacturers, two representing motor vehicle safety equipment manufacturers, three representing State or local governments, and five representing the general public. Members are to be appointed for 4-year terms on a staggered basis. The duties of the Council shall be to advise and make recommendations to the Secretary with respect to motor vehicle safety standards under this act. The Secretary is required to seek such advice and recommendations before establishing, amending, or revoking a safety standard. Members of the Council may be paid up to $100 a day wher engaged in their actual duties. They will also receive travel expenses Receiving payment for services does not render a member of the Coun cil an employee or officer of the United States for any purpose.

The introduced bill did not contain any provision similar to section 104 of the reported bill. The committee decided that it would be desirable to create an Advisory Council to insure that the Secretary have available to him the advice and recommendations of a cross section of those principally interested in his formulation of safety standards. The Council will be comprised of a balance between the industries concerned and the public and State and local governments. The committee intends that participation in the activities of the 20 Council as a member, and receipt of payment therefor, shall not be construed to be participation as a Government officer or employee within the meaning of section 208 of title 18 of the United States Code

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