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dent with the advice and consent of the the United States and the Senate on this
Senate would certainly be more of a matter.
prestige council than one which is ap- The CHAIRMAN. The question is on

pointed by the Secretary of Commerce. the amendment offered by the gentleman 19662 I believe it is more in the public interest from Winois (Mr. SPRINGER).

that we have this particular procedure The question was taken; and the
followed. as indeed was the one which Chairman being in doubt, the Committee
you suggested initially. Neither method divided, and there were ayes 49, noes 66.
of appointment would not diminish the Mr. SPRINGER. Mr. Chairman, I
authority of the Secretary of Commerce. demand tellers.
Indeed, I believe we would strengthen his Tellers were ordered, and the Chair-
hand as he tries to wrestle with this tre- man appointed as tellers Mr. SPRINGER
mendously important problem.

and Mr. ROGERS of Florida.
Actually we are having much ado about The Committee again divided, and the
nothing. I hope my colleagues over on tellers reported that there were-ayes,
the other side will go along with us and 80; noes, 77.
show your confidence in the President of So the amendment was agreed to.

Congressional Record-House
August 17, 1966, 19668 and 19669

The SPEAKER. The Clerk will report The SPEAKER. Evidently a quorum
the amendment on which a separate vote is not present.
has been demanded.

The Doorkeeper will close the doors,
The Clerk read as follows:

the Sergeant at Arms will notify absent
Page 34, line 14, strike out "Secretary" and Members, and the Clerk will call the roll.
Insert in lleu thereof the following: "Pread. The question was taken; and there
dent with the advice and consent of the were yeas 168, nays 205, not voting 59,

as follows:
The SPEAKER. The question is on the .......

So the amendment was rejected.
The question was taken; and on a divi-

sion (demanded by Mr. SPRINGE) there
were-ayes 75, noes 98.

The SPEAKER. The question is on
Mr. SPRINGER. Mr. Chairman, I. the committee substitute.
object to the vote on the ground that The committee substitute was agreed to.
& quorum is not present and make the
point of order that & quorum is not


Congressional Record-House
August 31, 1966, 21349-21352



for yielding.
The House version requires appoint- I believe the gentleman said in his
ment of an Advisory Council to be made statement with reference to the National
up of representatives of those industries Advisory Council "some changes had
concerned, state and local governments, been made," primarily by the other body,
and the general public. The Senate ver- and this was agreed to by the con-
sion has no comparable provision. The ference.
managers for the Senate, with some Mr. STAGGERS. No.
modifications, wcepted the inclusion of Mr. PICKLE. At least, some changes
an Advisory Council.

were made with respect to this Advisory

Mr. STAGGERS. That is correct. fore we have set up the basis of the

Mr. PICKLE. I am trying to deter- commission but left it to the discretion mine what these changes were. II of the Secretary since it is an advisory read from the correct section of the committee. We have not specified that 21350 conference report, section 104(a) states: it must be 12. It may be that he will

The Secretary shall establish a National want to put various industry people on Motor Vehicle Safety Advisory Council, a this council. He may want to put some majority of which shall be representatives automobile dealers on it, because they of the general public, including representa

do have an interest in it. He may want tives of State and local governments, and

to put a used-car dealer on it. Howthe remainder shall include representatives of motor vehicle manufacturers, motor vehi.

ever, if he puts these people on, then he cle equipment manufacturers, and motor must put a like number of public memvehicle dealers.

bers on it so that there will be a ma.

jority of public members. Thus, the statement is made:

Mr. PICKLE. The same argument A majority of which shall be representa could be made with respect to the hightives.

way safety measure in which they say A majority of how many?

19 members. On the basis of this lanMr. STAGGERS. OI 19. The com- guage, you probably would have at least mittee was expanded.

five members. Mr. PICKLE. I do not see where this Mr. ROGERS of Florida. Yes. reference to 19 is made. Originally it

Mr. PICKLE. I think it would be the was 13.

intent of this Congress that you will have Mr. STAGGERS. I am sorry: that more than five members, because this is was incorrect. The figure of 19 was dis- supposed to cut across the board in a cussed at some length. We leave this broad field. Five is a limitation. Would discretionary with the Secretary. We you not say that it was your intent to do insist that the public have the ma. have at least 15 members ? jority.

Mr. ROGERS of Florida. I think it Mr. PICKLE. The measure which af was the intent of the Congress that we fects highway safety, which was brought have more than five, because we have to the floor by another committee, had listed some people that certainly ought a provision of 29 members.

to be considered for membership, but we Mr. STAGGERS. Yes.

have not tied the hands of the Secretary Mr. PICKLE. A specific number. as to how many he should have on it. It Mr. STAGGERS. Yes.

is certainly the intent that it be a reaMr. PICKLE. To be appointed by the sonable membership to accomplish and President. It is a committee of some make up & proper advisory Committee. considerable standing, and I think that That is the intent of the whole Advisory is fine. It seems to me that we ought Council. It is to make it a useful tool to have a definite number here. This for the Secretary in setting standards. could be a majority of three or four. It Mr. PICKLE. I will say to the gensavs “a majority of which” and therefore tleman that this seems to me to be & you could have any number. This leaves glaring weakness in the report in that it mighty wide open, it seems to me, Mr. you do not specify the number of the Speaker.

advisory committee, which is something Mr. STAGGERS. Certainly we could fundamental. have a much larger group than three.

Mr. ROGERS of Florida. If the genMr. PICKLE. But it does not say that.

tleman will permit me to say so, I will Mr. ROGERS of Florida. Mr. Speak disagree with him very definitely, beer, will the gentleman yield?

cause if we were to say that there should Mr. STAGGERS. I shall be glad to be only 13, as we originally intended, then yield to the gentleman.

you will have groups coming in that want Mr. ROGERS of Florida. Actually, to be mentioned and represented and what we have said here is that there will perhaps should be. What we have done be a council appointed by the Secretary. is to take a reasonable course, listing We have not set a specific number, but people who ought to be considered for we have said that the majority must be membership, and leaving at the discrepublic members. This does leave in the tion of the Secretary the right to exdiscretion of the Secretary as to whether

pand on it. it shall be a 13-man, a 19-man, or a 26- Mr. PICKLE. It seems to me that the man committee, but what we have in gentleman is making an argument which sisted upon is the fact that the majority is just the opposite of the point he is try. shall be public members. We have sug- ing to make. If you put a specific limigested in the legislation the other areas tation on it, then he will appoint that from which the appointments will come, many and no more. As the gentleman will notice. There

Mr. ROGERS of Florida. It may be datory provision that he must consult that the Secretary feels he wants certain with this advisory council before he does ones on it, and we do not want to do issue any standards at all. anything that will restrict him. He may Mr. SPRINGER. I think the gentlewant a number of automobile men on man from Florida was quite insistent on it and some used-car people on it and this when we had it up in our committee. some truck equipment manufacturers. It is one of the better features of the bill, We do not know yet wbo will be helpful because this does not give discretion to to him in this advisory capacity. This the Secretary to consult but it is manallows him the dexiblity of doing what datory. He also should receive any reever is necessary and appropriate for an port from the council that they wish to advisory committee.

make in order that he may have the adMr. PICKLE. Mr. Speaker, I think vise of that council. this to a deficiency and it ought to be Mr. GROSS. Mr. Speaker, will the definitely stated as to the number that gentleman yield? should be on this Advisory Counal.

Mr. SPRINGER. Yes. I yield to the gentleman.

Mr. GROSS. Earlier this afternoon Mr. SPRINGER.

the gentleman from Texas (Mr. PICKLE), made a very good point that there ought

to have been a limitation on the number The other major difference involves

of members on the Advisory Council. I, the Advisory Council which was worked

for one, am surprised and disappointed out in the Commerce Committee and ac

that the conferees came back with a recepted by the House. No similar provi

port that provides an unlimited number sion had been considered by the other

and without any specification as to whom body. I know that the Members of this

they may be. It may be 26 political castHouse are fully aware that I advocated

offs appointed to this Council. Who an Advisory Council appointed by the knows? President of the United States with the

Mr. SPRINGER. May I say in answer advice and counsel of the Senate.

to the gentleman that I am just as disThe House did not see fit to accept my appointed as he is. We had just one alrecommendation in this regard. It did, ternative offered to the conference from however, provide an Advisory Council the other body, and that was no council which in its main provisions was ade at all. We either had to have this kind quate and highly useful. The Advisory of council or no council at all. Council provided in the conference re And that was the only alternative port is not what I would want it to be. which was presented to us. The reason It leaves entirely too much to the discre that we took it in this form is only betion of the Secretary as to its makeup cause we believed that a Safety Council and its functions. I do not feel, however, was necessary, and if we were going to that legislation as important and far have this thing function properly we reaching AS this National Traic and simply had to have a concern about it. Motor Vehicle Safety Act . should be May I say in further reply to the disjeopardized because of the relative weak tinguished gentleman from Iowa that ness of this one feature.

even under the other plan that even if To oppose it because of this one weak they desired to do so, we cannot keep

ness would be a disservice to the country. him from doing that. This is the rea21351 I am hopeful that the Secretary of Com son I wanted this Council appointed by

merce or the Secretary of Transporta the President and confirmed by the tion, as the case may be, will read care Senate, because we would have an opfully the hearings and other legislative portunity over here to do something history and will make every effort to about it. However, this was adopted in create an Advisory Council which is our committee and we want to do this. strong, independent, realistic, and truly Mr. Speaker, may I say that we came constructive to the purposes of this act. back with the best compromise which we

With this slight reservation and this could obtain, and that is the reason this admonition I endorse and support the is written in this form. acceptance of this conference report. Mr. Speaker, I am just as unhappy

Mr. ROGERS of Florida. Mr. Speaker about it as the gentleman from Iowa will the gentleman yield on that point? (Mr. GROSS), but I wanted to explain to

Mr. SPRINGER. Yes. I yield to the the gentleman the practical situation gentleman.

with which we were confronted. Mr. ROGERS of Florida. I would like

Mr. GROSS. Mr. Speaker, will the to join with the gentleman from Illinois

gentleman yield further? in making it very clear that we certainly

cainly Mr. SPRINGER. I yield further to did agree and insisted that this is a man

the gentleman from Iowa.

Mr. GROSS. Mr. Speaker, I appre- the gentleman's feeling that the advisory ciate the explanation of the gentleman committee should consist of between 13 from Illinois. I appreciate it very much and 20 members, approximately? for I know he has fought on this issue. Mr. STAGGERS. Mr. Speaker, will Am I correct in saying that if there were the gentleman from Illinois yield to me 26 of them, each could be paid $100 a at this point? day?

Mr. SPRINGER. I yield to the genMr. SPRINGER. I would doubt that tleman from West Virginia for the purthe Secretary would want 26. That pose of responding to the question. would be a rather unwieldy number. I Mr. STAGGERS. Mr. Speaker, I have been thinking that the Secretary, would like to say to the gentleman from with the limitation we have in here—I

Texas that the language of the report do not see how it could be less than 9, is to the effect that the membership with the various categories involved and should be composed of a number of bethe fact that he must appoint some and tween 13 and 19, or some number in bethe public must be in the majority tween. A number of other Members but I would think 9 would be the fewest thought that in order to get the bill out, but I think it would still be in the neigh- we should agree to this figure. borhood of the figure of 9 to 15.

Mr. Speaker, the word “representaMr. Speaker, I was thinking that the tive" means two. We have 6 different Secretary, with the limitation which we groups represented and that would mean have in here—I do not see how it could 12. We would like for each group to be less than nine with the various cate- have two. We discussed the numbers begories involved and the public must be tween 13 and 19, and that would be my in the majority-but I would think nine understanding, if the Secretary does not would be the fewest. However, I would add to these members with reference to further think that the number would still the figure of somewhere in between, with be in the neighborhood of 9 to 15. which I believe we are working.

Mr. GROSS. But, Mr. Speaker, if the Mr. PICKLE. Mr. Speaker, I thank gentleman will yield further, they could the gentleman from West Virginia for be paid $100 a day; is that correct? his comments. And, is this also the feel

Mr. SPRINGER. That is correct. ing and intent of the gentleman repreMr. PICKLE. Mr. Speaker, will the senting the minority? gentleman yield?

Mr. SPRINGER. Does the gentleman Mr. SPRINGER. I yield to the gen- from Texas mean insofar as this comtleman from Texas.

promise is concerned? Mr. PICKLE. Mr. Speaker, I ask for Mr. PICKLE. I mean insofar as the this time for the purpose of propounding practical number that the Secretary to the chairman of che committee and should appoint should be somewhere in to the gentleman representing the mi- the neighborhood of 15? nority the following question:

Mr. SPRINGER. That is correct; I Were there individual ideas about the think in the neighborhood of 13 to 17, number that should compose the mem and I think it might be 19. I think the bership of this group? The purpose un restriction should be put in here to the der the provisions of this bill is to define effect that you should not have more the bounds within which we must op- than 17 or less than 9. erate. I do not want the committee to Mr. PICKLE. Mr. Speaker, it the be so small that it would represent a gentleman will yield further, if the gensmall, select, closed-corporation, hip tleman will read the language, it is clearpocket type of committee, to be operated ly open to interpretation as to whether by the Secretary of Commerce solely and it should be four or six. I believe there which would have no real meaningful should be a representative group. And, effect.

if the gentleman thinks in terms of 13, Mr. Speaker, neither do I want the or 19, as the chairman does, I will not committee to be composed of a group so offer motion to recommit the bill. large, as I am sure the balance of the Mr. SPRINGER. I think the gentleMembers would not want, that it would man has made a good contribution. At be unwieldy, and/or that it would cost least the Secretary is going to read the the taxpayers too much per day.

RECORD about what number we think it Mr. Speaker, the gentleman in the well ought to be and I think that is about offered an amendment in the committee right. which would call for the composition of Mr. PICKLE. I thank the gentleman. the committee to consist of 13 members. Mr. STAGGERS. Mr. Speaker, I This was passed by the House but was yield 5 minutes to the gentleman from not agreed to by the other body.

California (Mr. Moss). Mr. Speaker, if the gentleman is talk- Mr. MOSS. Mr. Speaker, this is a ing in terms of 13 or 15 or 19, would it be very significant piece of legislation. I

think that the final product broughtW e were mindful of the sensitive na-
here for consideration today should lay ture of a very important basic industry.
to rest any allegations or charges that I believe a fine balance was achieved in
the House labored less vigorously or with that conference committee.
less good faith than the other body.

We had a considerable amount of dis-
Throughout the hearings on this legis- cussion over the numbers of persons who
lation and the lengthy process of markshould constitute an advisory commit-
up, I believe that every member of the tee. This was a very dificult subject for
committee represented in his judgment the committee, with the other body not
the public interest and the interest of favoring any kind of an advisory com-
his district and that is the appropriate mittee, and I believe the balance here
role to fulfill.

again achieved is very much in the pub-
I think that there was at all times in lic interest.
the conference an overriding concern on C learly, they do not want the Secretary
the part of every member of the con- to appoint a body so large as to be un-
ference from both Houses on both sides wieldy or so small as to be unrepre-
of the aisle to improve and strengthen sentative.
the legislation in order that it better
serve the purposes of the American
motoring public.


Sectio Advisory, ed by the ouncil aract

House Committee Report
House Report 1776, Pages 19, 20, 46, and 47

Section 104 of the reported bill creates a National Motor Vehicle
Safety Advisory Council consisting of 13 members. The members
are to be appointed by the Secretary, and he shall designate the chair-
man. Members of the Council are to be chosen as follows: Three
representing motor vehicle manufacturers, two representing motor
vehicle safety equipment manufacturers, three representing State or
local governments, and five representing the general public. Mem.
bers are to be appointed for 4-year terms on a staggered basis. The
duties of the Council shall be to advise and make recommendations
to the Secretary with respect to motor vehicle safety standards under
this act. The Secretary is required to seek such advice and recom-
mendations before establishing, amending, or revoking a safety stand-
ard. Members of the Council may be paid up to $100 a day wher
engaged in their actual duties. They will also receive travel expenses
Receiving payment for services does not render a member of the Coun:
cil an employee or officer of the United States for any purpose.

The introduced bill did not contain any provision similar to section 104 of the reported bill. The committee decided that it would be desirable to create an Advisory Council to insure that the Secretary have available to him the advice and recommendations of a cross section of those principally interested in his formulation of safety standards. The Council will be comprised of a balance between the industries concerned and the public and State and local governments.

The committee intends that participation in the activities of the 20 Council as a member, and receipt of payment therefor, shall not be construed to be participation as a Government officer or employee within the meaning of section 208 of title 18 of the United States Code

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