Mr. REINECKE. I would like to believe that, too, but if these other countries are listening in good faith and our representative goes up there and spend two-thirds of his time talking about the Decade, it seems to me that he is saying that the Decade is the business of this committee.

DESIRE FOR U.N. ENDORSEMENT, BUT NOT COORDINATION

Dr. WENK. If I may explain, I think some of the motivation behind our bringing this to the U.N. committee was; first, each of these specialized agencies is made up of groups of nations but not the same group. Thus the United Nations provides the only forum in which all of the nations are represented. Some are not members of IOC. Some are not members of FAO; some not members of WMO.

First of all we thought this would be a broader forum in which we hoped to gain support.

Second, it also is a political forum. This has its disadvantages, but it has one advantage at least in gaining support at a political level. The United States has the benefit right now of support for marine affairs by policymakers. This is not true in many other nations. We have come a long way in these 2 years. In fact it is hard sometimes for us who are so intimately involved to sit back and recognize the progress that has been made since enactment of your act. Other nations haven't made the same progress.

The end result is that when questions of this kind come up overseas there is not the same domestic forum there for them to discuss the issues. They may be discussed only among the scientists and not therefore gain the policy level support-which mean funds from their member governments.

This was our appraisal of the situation and the reason that we went to the United Nations. But I want to underscore again it was for the purpose of gaining the type of support but not for the purpose of their having a responsibility with regard to the conduct of the Decade.

Mr. REINECKE. I don't want to belabor the point, Mr. Chairman, but I wish I saw more daylight between the Decade and the ad hoc committee.

Mr. LENNON. The gentleman from Alaska.

Mr. POLLOCK. Yes, Mr. Chairman.

The hour is late so that I am going to have to be very brief. Mr. LENNON. We are going to be going until the second quorum call.

Mr. POLLOCK. Unfortunately I had an 11:30 appointment.
Mr. LENNON. Go ahead.

ASSURANCE ON MAPPING OF U.S. CONTINENTAL SHELF

Mr. POLLOCK. First, I would like to reiterate the concern over the caveat that the gentleman from Washington brought out about the preparation of geological or geophysical maps of the deep ocean floor. I want to make sure that we are not going to be giving the wedge or the opportunity for other countries to come to our shores and exploit our resources. They are doing this already to too great an extent. I am very much in support of the International Decade of Ocean Exploration,

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but I want to make sure that there are some meaningful benefits to us and to the world and that we are not merely opening the door for exploitation of our shores by other nations.

Dr. WENK. Mr. Pollock, I well understand your point, and I would like to give you that assurance.

Mr. POLLOCK. All right, sir.

If I might touch on another point, I think the resolution that we have made on the conservation about the International Decade on Ocean Exploration doesn't make it clear whether or not we are talking about, No. 1, the deep ocean floor, or talking in addition about the fisheries, about the Continental Shelf, about military utilization, and so forth; I think this is a major concern about the resolution as we have prepared it.

ECONOMIC GEOGRAPHY OF THE OCEANS

Dr. WENK. The intent is to have as broad a scope as possible concerned with exploring the oceans for peaceful uses, and this would embrace science and questions of science whether it has to do with the origin of the earth or air-sea interaction that relates to weather phenomena. But it also includes exploration of the resources themselves, both living and nonliving.

The intent is to within this time span collect as much information as possible about the distribution and the richness of the resources and in the case of living resources to understand the relationship between fishery stocks and the environment, water temperature, current, salinity, nutrients, and so on. On the basis of this information, we would have far better atlases, relevant to "economic geography" than we have today. In fact we find those words very seldom used about the oceans when they really should be used.

We used those words about the continent, and I am sure they were used in the development of Alaska, but we never used the term "economic geography" in the development of the oceans. That is what we are talking about.

Another essential ingredient of this program is the availability of this information to all nations. This, in turn, means to the United States as well, and this is why I made the comment earlier that we visualize a return on our investment of either two or three for one, depending upon how you compute it.

RETURN ON U.S. INVESTMENT

Mr. POLLACK. That is the next point I wanted to get into very briefly.

I really didn't understand your factor-of-3 comment as it ultimately ends up $3 to $5 billion. Maybe I just didn't understand what you were saying. If your comment was that we are now spending $480 billion for oceanography in general and about one-third of that for programs which are within the concept of IDOE, then we are talking about an investment of $150 million, or $160 million.

Were you talking about increasing this by a factor of 3 over the 10year period?

Dr. WENK. That is correct.

Mr. POLLOCK. That would come out to about one and a half billion dollars, would it not?

PROJECTED LEVEL OF EFFORT

Dr. WENK. If it were leveled today over the 10-year period, it would be one and a half billion dollars. If it increased linearly between 1970 and 1980, and the 1980 level were three times the 1970 level, the total would be $3 billion for 10 years. This is how I arrive at the $3 billion.

Mr. POLLOCK. I will take your word for the mathematics. I couldn't make it come out.

Dr. WENK. If the total that all the nations of the world contribute is equivalent to $8 or $9 billion, and we receive all the data collected with the worldwide development, we are getting $8 or $9 billion worth of data for our investment of $3 billion. This is where I arrive at this return of two or three for one.

UNITED STATES WOULD NOT PICK UP MOST OF COSTS

Mr. POLLOCK. All right, sir. I wondered at the advisability of our advising the other countries beforehand that we would pick up onethird of the tab. I am sure the State Department and other people are more expert in the field than I am, but it seemed to me that it might be a disadvantageous thing rather than an advantageous one.

Dr. WENK. The purpose was to indicate that we were not going to pick up more than one-third. All too often these international programs end up with the United States contributing a substantially larger fraction. From our point of view it was really a caution to the other nations that we were not willing to look on this as an international program in which, for example, we might end up with twothirds

CONGRESSIONAL PARTICIPATION IN INTERNATIONAL MEETINGS

Mr. POLLOCK. Mr. Chairman, I have two other points and I will mention them very briefly. One is that I became concerned in our joint committee meeting the other day about whether or not any administrative machinery has been put into play which would specifically provide the opportunity for congressional observance, or participation, in any of these hearings, such as the one in South America and others. It seems to me that not only does Congress want the people to report, but we should have some of our committee members or our experts have the opportunity to observe as they develop.

The other point that I might mention, which is quite different so that I can wind this up, is that I am also concerned about the remaining time within the framework of the legislative process this year for our passing this resolution. I would hope that we could get some of the answers which we have required from the distinguished gentlemen who are testifying this morning so that we could get the legislative machinery moving. Otherwise, I think it will go no place because we are going to be winding up at the end of this week for perhaps a month and then I don't know what will happen after that.

Mr. LENNON. We will go off the record.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. LENNON. We will return to the record.

Have you any other questions?

Mr. POLLOCK. The other question was the concern about congressional participation or observance at these international meetings and some of the really very basic decisions that are going on. We get some information beforehand. We get some of it after the fact.

Mr. Reinecke had some very real concerns which I think we all share. I just hate to get in on something when it is a fait accompli; it is too late; it has already been done.

Mr. LENNON. I have always had that view about it. I don't think that there is dialog or perhaps rapport, between the legislative and executive branches of the Government. There is a whole lot more rapport between the executive and judicial branches of the Governmentaccording to the recent hearings on the confirmation of the distinguished jurists—than there is between the executive and the legislative. I believe it would be helpful to the executive if some of us in the legislative could participate in these early decisions before they come to us as accomplished facts. We will have to resolve that somehow or other.

Mr. POLLACK. May I add a word on that?

Mr. POLLOCK. Yes.

Mr. POLLACK. Congressman Pollock raised this the other day at the termination of our hearing. We did ask the leadership of both the House and Senate to designate observer representatives from both parties, both of the Senate and the House, to the U.S. delegation on the ad hoc committee, and I must say that I thought it was as a result of your action-I gave you credit for it in any case that within a day after you raised the point we did receive word that Congressman Fascell would be one such observer representative designated by the House of Representatives. The Senate had designated Senator Pell as an observer representative from the Senate.

Mr. POLLOCK. Thank you very much.

Mr. LENNON. We appreciate that. We sometimes feel that, since we have a joint legislative responsibility with the Subcommittee on Foreign Affairs involved in this, perhaps we ought to be included; but we won't discuss that.

Mr. POLLOCK. Mr. Chairman, may I make one comment to the Chair before I myself depart?

Mr. LENNON. Surely.

EARLY CONGRESSIONAL ACTION ON HOUSE CONCURRENT RESOLUTION 803

Mr. POLLOCK. I wonder if it would be possible, once we get some of the answers from the distinguished witnesses this morning, to perhaps have the staff or counsel prepare some kind of a summary for the members of our subcommittee in the hope that perhaps we could have a full committee hearing very shortly after we reconvene if that is what is going to happen. I fear that so many members are not going to be here that this simply will not be acted upon.

Mr. LENNON. That is the risk we have to take, and I ask counsel to do that.

Mr. POLLOCK. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

GOVERNMENTAL PLANNING BODY

Mr. LENNON. On page 7 of the so-called white paper of May 1968, on line 8 I believe it is, you state that—

During the next fiscal year the Decade planning role will be undertaken by a new joint governmental/nongovernmental planning organization, reporting to the National Council on Marine Resources and Engineering Development. The scientific and industrial communities will be invited to participate continuously and actively in this planning activity, particularly through the National Academy of Sciences and the National Academy of Engineering.

Has this new joint governmental/nongovernmental planning organization which will have the responsibility for the Decade planning role been named yet?

Dr. WENK. Mr. Chairman, it has not. The word "organization" here perhaps makes it sound like an entirely new and perhaps larger body than in fact it will be. This is a small staff reporting to the Council which we visualize to include representatives from the Federal agencies on the one hand, and representatives of nongovernment interests on the other. It is our proposal, that the nongovernmental participants in this planning staff be nominated by the Academy of Sciences and the Academy of Engineering and such proposal has been made to them, but such a staff has not yet come into being.

Mr. LENNON. When such a staff is selected, or nominated, and before it is released to the news media, Doctor, I would appreciate it if you would furnish counsel with a copy of it prior to its publication.

Dr. WENK. We would be pleased to do this. Let me mention that this was specifically delineated in the President's request to the Congress for funds for our Council, and elaborated on in my subsequent testimony before the Appropriations Subcommittee, and we were pleased to find support for this concept in the Appropriations Subcommittees, both House and Senate, so that the funding is there.

If I may just mention, parenthetically, the responsibility for this planning is quite unique and quite demanding and we are currently looking for this very rare individual as decade planning director who combines both scientific credentials and experience with ability at administration both on a national and international scale. Such individuals are indeed rare and yet we feel we must find such a person for our staff if this is to succeed.

STRENGTHENING FOREIGN CAPABILITIES

Mr. LENNON. Dr. Wenk, on page 4 of the white paper you have such international collaborative projects and under the subtitle of types of projects come down to item 5, as one of the types of projects for international collaboration:

Assistance in strengthening the capabilities of the developing nations to participate in exploration programs, including manpower training.

Now, the question is to what degree has the Federal Government in the last 20 years been involved in this sort of manpower training program as related to foreign government?

Dr. WENK. There are many tens of thousands of students from other nations in residence now in the United States studying science and