day would be $16 a week, to 75 cents. That moved the wage up to $30 a week.

There was $14 additional purchasing power for 32 million people. It was one of the things that kept our economy stabilized, by increasing the purchasing power.

Mr. FRELINGHUYSEN. Is not one of the basic questions, as our chairman has suggested, the fact that inflation is one of the factors, a very key factor in this overall picture? The change in the value of the dollar is going to mean a lot more, or the lack of change is going to mean a lot more to the average worker than an increase of 5 cents or 10 cents an hour.

Mr. BAILEY. I am not one Member of Congress who gets excited about the question of inflation. I am more worried-if the gentleman were acquainted with the situation in my State-about a depression.

Mr. FRELINGHUYSEN. If we were only concerned about the situation in our own State-we from New Jersey or New York-and we were also concerned only about the lack of purchasing power of the citizens of our own State we might be backing an increase of $2. But it would be, and I think you will agree, unrealistic if we did that. I am just wondering whether too big an increase would not result in a complete loss of purchasing power on the part of some individual employees because they would be taken off the rolls altogether as the employers could not afford to hire them.

Mr. BAILEY. Was the gentleman on the floor the other day when we were discussing the bill to provide flour and meal to the hungry people? Do you remember Mr. Van Zandt, of Pennsylvania, presenting the figures from the State of Pennsylvania, that 1,015,000 citizens of the State of Pennsylvania were living on surplus Federal foods?

Mr. FRELINGHUYSEN. You are not suggesting that an increase in the minimum wage is going to solve the problems of those individuals, I do not suppose, in itself?

Mr. BAILEY. Not if they are unemployed.

Mr. FRELINGHUYSEN. I do not know how relevant that is to the present discussion. What I am asking is, Do you think a drastic increase would not result in what you say you do not want to see, and that is the loss of employment on the part of numbers of people in marginal industries?

Mr. BAILEY. If we placed the minimum rate too high, I agree with you that it might cause unemployment.

Mr. FRELINGHUYSEN. That is all I am saying, that there is a practical limit that we have to avoid exceeding.

Mr. BAILEY. And I did not say that I was insisting on the $1.25. I said frankly that I was willing to agree to a figure somewhere between the proposal of the President and the amount contained in this bill.

Mr. WAINWRIGHT. I would like to say that the very point that you are making, that you agree with Mr. Frelinghuysen that an increase to an arbitrary high amount would have a devastating effect on the economy, comes back to the very question that the chairman has so correctly pointed out, that we cannot go into this thing lightly; that we must have ample and careful and qualified hearings on the subject. You, yourself, admit that, because you do not want to go overboard on it and disrupt the economy.

Mr. BAILEY. I am sure the gentleman will change his viewpoint some when we bring in a considerable number of witnesses and have to sit and hear their same testimony repeated over and over.

Chairman BARDEN. Let me say this since that was directed here: The gentleman admits he does not know where it belongs, between 75 cents and $1.25, and now you persist that you do not want to hear any witnesses.

Mr. BAILEY. I think the gentleman, when he was out of the room just a minute ago, missed my statement when I said I would not consider any minimum of less than $1. So I do know about a figure where I would consider voting out this legislation.

Chairman BARDEN. What I want is something to substantiate that. Mr. BAILEY. I will give it to you when the time comes.

Mr. WAINWRIGHT. Mr. Bailey made reference to the fact that many of us did not have the advantages that he had in the 1949 hearings. I would like to point out that up through Mr. Landrum on that side, and certainly up to General Smith on this side, we did not have the benefit of that, which is certainly the vast majority of the committee. We should be entitled to the benefit of up-to-date information on this very important subject.

I have finished, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. RHODES. I have one question I want to ask. Mr. Bailey, as I recall the figures in 1950, the year after the minimum wage was raised to 75 cents, there were some 51⁄2 million people unemployed in the United States, which was a rather large increase over 1948 or 1949. Do you have any way of knowing whether or not the increase in the minimum wage had anything to do with the increase in unemployment?

Mr. BAILEY. I have no figures.

Mr. RHODES. Thank you.

Chairman BARDEN. Mr. Bailey, let me ask you this: Do you have a date in mind to suggest?

Mr. BAILEY. I believe, Mr. Chairman, that I said-I read a telegram into the record here, and I have a number of them over on my desk that I did not take the trouble to bring over because I did not want to encumber the record with them. They are pleading that if we make a minimum wage increase, that we make it at the earliest possible date. This one wire that I read suggested 30 days after the passage of the act.

Chairman BARDEN. Do you think the economy can stand that? Do you not think that would be a little inconsiderate of men who have contracts outstanding that figured on that?

Mr. BAILEY. I agree with that gentlemen, that should be taken into consideration by the committee, but on the other hand you are going to find a pretty general demand on the part of industry that is affected that if there is too much of a spread between the time the Congress acts and the effective date of the increase, it will cause abnormal buying in an effort to stock up on the part of the retail trades, and then after the new law goes into effect there will be no orders coming into the industries, and there will be a lag there. The damage might be enough to offset the improvement of the minimum wage.

Chairman BARDEN. Well, should we let big business and big labor run away with this picture? There are some other people in this country.

Mr. BAILEY. The big business I referred to here in this telegram was the hosiery industry, and I do not know that that is particularly a big business. It is not so classed.

Chairman BARDEN. Well, I love beautiful hosiery as much as any man living, but I like to eat, too. I am interested in this food question. Mr. GWINN. I have a question to ask.

Chairman BARDEN. Just one second. I was serious in the question because we are going to have to decide the question of whether it shall be a gradual rise, or a sudden jump, and whether it shall go into effect 60 days or 90 days or when.

I just believe there is enough fair play in this world for everybody, and will have to be considerate of them. If we go counter to the way of our economy, our economy will have its way, whether we like it or not, and then we get the unemployed.

Mr. WAINWRIGHT. The Senate has already been considering this for 30 days now.

Chairman BARDEN. I am getting over to that question of date, and I want to do a good job and I want to do it quick. I certainly want to get finished with this, but I do not want the general public to get the idea that we are just going through a kind of formality for a few days, and then all of a sudden someone will come up with the number.

I want to say at this point that here is the thing that I have considerable fear about: I get a tremendous amount of mail from the retired R. F. D. carriers, and from the retired railroad workers, and from the retired civil-service workers, and all of them are in trouble because when they retired their money would buy the necessities of life, and now their money will not buy the necessities of life.

I think to a certain extent we are perpetrating a fraud on those people if we unwittingly and recklessly further reduce the value of that dollar without some way of relief.

Now, during World War I, everyone knew that the French franc was worth 24 cents and a fraction. We regarded it as a quarter. It was just like our quarter. The Italian lire was approximately 18 cents-17 or 18 cents. Now, it has only been about 2 or 3 years since I bought 600 French francs for $1, and 700 Italian lire for $1.

Mr. BAILEY. Is the gentleman trying to imply there that all of the money we have been shoveling into Europe has not improved the situation any?

Chairman BARDEN. To some areas of Europe you could shovel it in with a steam shovel and it would not improve it. France is going to have to do something for itself from within, or it is a decadent nation, and the money we pour in will not do the job.

Mr. BAILEY. I find myself in agreement with the chairman on one point, at least.

Chairman BARDEN. I think that we are in agreement on more than one thing. But here is the point that I am making, Mr. Bailey: Wekeep thinking those things cannot happen to us. They are happening all over the world. It can happen to us, and it will not take a thing in the world but some careless handling of our finances.

Everybody knows that minimum wage legislation is basically counter to our democratic form of government and our competitive economy. Basically it just does not fit in there. But it is the policy of the Government and we have gotten accustomed to it.

I will go along with you. I will go along with raising it. I will go along with raising it just as high as it is safe to raise it. The only thing I want to know is where is the safety point. I do not want to further injure this civil-service worker, the old man that retired with money enough to live comfortably. Those people are now having to go out and do a kind of work that they never did in their life in order to live. It is serious. I receive petitions from them. In fact, just last week I received a petition from the retired R. F. D. carriers. I never knew I had so many retired R. D. F. carriers in my district. They showed me what they were getting. That is their problem.

Now, they are not here to speak for themselves. As I say, big business can be heard, and big labor can be heard. But big business and big labor do not run this country from the standpoint of production and making the economy click.

I am just proceeding cautiously, and when I do that the so-called liberals, whatever they are, and other people, say, "Well, he is a conservative." I have had to be conservative all of my life, and a lot of people are going to have to be conservative. Those RFD carriers are going to have to be conservative to live. The gentleman has got as kind a heart as any man I know, and I was serious when I said, "Let us not toy with it; let us do everything in the world we can to be sure and at the same time safe."

That is why I asked something that would nail down the subject of where it should be. If it makes no difference, let us make it $2, and everybody would be happy. If it does make a difference, then let us find where it belongs.

In some sections of this country, if you put $1.25 in, you know what would happen, do you not? I do. Some sections it would not hurt a particle. It would not do any serious damage to your textile industry, as far as that is concerned. It would not hurt the automobile industry, not a bit in the world.

But what would it do to the smaller fellow that feeds the automobile industry and buys the automobiles? That is what I am concerned with. And I am not being argumentative with the gentleman. I really am very serious. Let us get down and say ourselves where it should be, whether it should be 90 cents, 95 cents, or where it should be. I have the personal feeling from my experience that I am satisfied with 90 cents. From there on I begin to wonder how much more the traffic will take.

Do you have a question, Mr. Gwinn?

Mr. GWINN. I wanted to clarify, Mr. Chairman-I thought there was a little confusion about this telegram from the Association of Hosiery Manufacturers, Mr. Bailey. I do not see anything in that telegram to indicate they are for raising the minimum wage.

Mr. BAILEY. I did not say they were for raising it. I read the telegram into the record.

Mr. GWINN. They simply say, "Do not leave us confused. If you are going to do something, do it quick."

Mr. BAILEY. They want us to make the effective date of it not more than 30 days.

Mr. GWINN. But they take no position on whether there should be a raise or not.

Mr. BAILEY. I did not imply that. I read the telegram and you have a copy of it. It is in the record, or will be put in the record.

Mr. ROOSEVELT. I join with the chairman in my interest with respect to those who are retired, because I think that they have the most difficulty of all of the people who have economic troubles in our country. Chairman BARDEN. I will say this to the gentleman: You know in our improved laws with the retirement provisions, and the encouragement of retirement programs with industry, and railroads, the number of retired people is just increasing astronomically. It is such a sizable group now that I feel we should be conscious of them and not forget them.

Mr. ROOSEVELT. We should be conscious of them. I would like to ask, Mr. Bailey, whether you would have any figures as to what effect an increase in the minimum wage would have on those who reach the retirement age under our social-security law? My impressions is that, certainly under the existing minimum wage when these people retire, it will be extremely difficult for them to retire on what they will get from their retirement under the present social-security law.

It would be of tremendous assistance to them to be able to get a little better retirement figure, by having an increased minimum wage, which as I understand the workings of the social-security law, what they get in the end depends on what they earn. Therefore, if they earn a little more, they will have a little bit more to retire on.

Certainly my figures would indicate, and I would like to ask you, Mr. Bailey, whether you do not feel this would enable them to retire at a figure that would come a little bit nearer, not enough in my opinion, but a little bit nearer toward being able to keep body and soul together?

Mr. BAILEY. I agree with the gentleman from California wholeheartedly. It will do that very thing.

Mr. ROOSEVELT. Therefore this proposal of yours would be assisting a great segment of the population of our country, of the working people of our country, to retire at a figure which would enable them to have a decent standard of living. It would work in that direction, and I do not think it would fully give them that under present circumstances.

Mr. BAILEY. I appreciate your offering that suggestion. It had not occurred to me, but I can see the advantages that there would be of establishing a greater base for retirement pay? That is if the minimum wage were advanced.

Mr. GWINN. Mr. Bailey, as I understood your statement, your theory of raising the minimum wage by law is that it will increase purchasing power. Is that the basis on which you want your testimony to rest?

Mr. BAILEY. From a major standpoint, yes, because most of the ills of the country can be cured by greater purchasing power. Mr. GWINN. Then, on that theory

Mr. BAILEY. I have no desire to unduly punish any small industry that is struggling along. Too much of a boost in the minimum wage might injure them. But that is a matter for this committee to decide and not for me alone as a single member of the committee.

Mr. GWINN. Well, if you take that position, then you would logically have to go along with legislation continuing to fix minimum prices for corn and wheat and cotton and tobacco and beef and pork