been discouraged by every unfair means that cunning could invent

and power apply.

And the success of these measures has been so complete, that in all countries, at this day, man is more ignorant of himself than of almost any thing else by which he is surrounded.

Up to this period, however, no government could pursue any other course with safety or with the least prospect of being permanent.— The circumstances did not exist to permit them to do it. For the population of the world must be governed by force, through their ignorance, or by great justice, intelligence, and good feelings.

There is no permanent stopping place between these two extremes, and the best disposed governments have often felt this truth. Until now the knowledge and the means to govern a numerous population through intelligence and affection did not exist.

Previous to any successful attempt, it was necessary that experi ence should develope two sciences, first; the science of the influence of circumstances over human nature; the second, the science of the means of creating unlimited wealth, and of its equal distribution,

By the knowledge of these two sciences, properly applied to practice, all men may be easily taught and trained from infancy to become intelligent, independent, and happy, and to be governed without any difficulty, through their affections."

These two sciences are now known, sufficiently, to be applied, with success, to the population of all countries; and upon investigation, it will be found to be the interest of all governments to prepare the means, without delay, by which the people in their respective courtries, may be taught this knowledge, in such a manner that all shall be benefited and none shall be injured.

By these measures being adopted, and openly and honestly made known to the public, all collision between the governments and pec. ple will be avoided; all attempts at future revolutions will cease; the governors and governed will be actively engaged in this good and great work; mutual confidence will be acquired, and peace and good will will every where prevail.

Were any parties so ignorant of their own interest or happiness, as to desire to withhold this happy change from their fellow-beings, they could not now effect it, except by an increase of the tyranny of the few over the many,

For the knowledge of these sciences have gone forth, never again to be recalled, or to become unknown, by any efforts man can make. They are now actively passing from mind to mind, and from country to country; and no human power can stay their course, until they shall pervade all countries and every mind.

Thus, as it appears to me, have I proved that all the religions of the world have originated in error; that they are directly opposed to the divine unchanging laws of human nature; that they are necessarily the source of vice, disunion, and misery; that they are now the only obstacle to the formation of a society, over the earth, of intelli gence, of charity in its most extended sense, and of sincerity and kind

ness among the whole human race. And, also, that those district religions can be no longer maintained in any part of the world, except by the perpetuation of the ignorance of the mass of the people, and of the continued tyranny of the few over the many.

Mr. Owen having finished reading, he remarked, that

In consequence of the remarks which had fallen from Mr. Camp bell, it becomes necessary to state, generally, that, in my opinion, it is perfectly useless to go into the examination of the verity of any or all the religions against which I am contending; for if I can show that man is a being entirely different from what all those religions assume him to be, I apprehend that I shall thereby prove all that is incumbent on me to establish. And I trust that I shall be able to show to this assembly, that man is a being to whom no religion, ever yet invented, can apply.

MR. CAMPBELL rose and said

Before the discussion intermits, I should like to make a few res marks. I feel much interested in having this discussion brought to a satisfactory issue. Mr. Owen and myself have given birth to large and liberal expectations from this discussion. There are a great many persons who honestly doubt the truths of religion-and these honest sceptics, who are without sufficient evidence to determine their minds, have come hither with a view to be edified by the discussion. Surely then we have an object of great importance before us.—What now is our progress towards this great object? Mr. Owen read us an essay upon what he calls twelve matters of fact or divine laws of human nature-suppose now we were to admit all these twelve facts, does this admission oblige us to accede to all the laws and deductions he may superinduce on these facts?-by no means. Is Mr. Owen's loose declamation to settle or unsettle the faith of any one? Has he introduced either argument or proof? Who can say that he has? Nevertheless, it appears to me, that Mr. Owen really thinks he has established, in evidence, every thing which he has undertaken to prove. I have a strong misgiving that Mr. Owen is about to give us a view or theory of the world, as foreign to the appropriate subjest now before this meeting, as would be the history of a tour up the Ganges. I repeat, that there are in this assembly some doubting christians, that require to be confirmed, and some sceptics to be corrected. To the confirmation and conviction of such auditors, all our reasonings should tend. All this time I should have been proving or disproving some position bearing upon the great question at issueInstead of this I must hear Mr. Owen reading upon a variety of topics having no legitimate bearing upon the subject matter before us.

During the recess before us, I could wish that the gentlemen moderators would agree upon some course, and compel us to pursue it.-Shall I be permitted to speculate abstractly upon the possibility or impossibility of any human being in any age, having the power to invent any religion? Will it be in order, for me to introduce some affirmative propositions in case Mr. Owen proceeds to read as he has

done, essays upon hunan nature, civil government, or a new order of political society. I think I am able to prove that man cannot invent any, even the most extravagant religion in the world. In all reli gions I conceive that there are certain ideas, for the invention of which man, viewed philosiphically, cannot be supposed to possess any powers. Shall I be at liberty to prove this by facts equal in strength, to say the least of them, to any one of those on which Mr. Owen predicates his theory of human nature. I merely ask for permission to take this course on condition that Mr. Owen refuses to be confined to the discussion of his own propositions. IfI am permitted to take this course, I will attempt, to demonstrate that man is in possession of powers never developed-never even glanced at, in any one of Mr. Owen's twelve divine laws. I will endeavor to show that in all religions there are ideas, terms, and phrases so supernatural that no human mind could originate them, according to any system of philosophy taught in the world. If this permission cannot logically be granted, according to the stipulated rules of the discussion I ask what part of Mr. Owen's address am I to reply to? For I do confess that Mr. Owen has not presented to my mind any thing for it to take hold of, having any argumentative bearing upon any one of his five positions. I confess myself too obtuse to discover the logical bearing of what he has read. I hope upon his first position we shall be able in the afternoon to take up the subject in a more logical form For I am now determined to present, with your permission, to this audience such a body of evidence as shall put it out of the power of any bonest inquirer to doubt the truth and divine origin of christianity. Here Mr. Campbell stated that the time had expired, and moved an adjournment, which was carried.

Monday, April 13th, 1829. Afternoon.-The Hon. Chairman rose and stated, that the Moderafors had felt it their duty to re-examine the challenge given, and the acceptance. We find, said he, that the challenge contains five dis inet propositions, separately stated. The first is, that all religions have been founded in ignorance. It is the opinion of the Moderators that the discussion this afternoon ought to be confined to that proposition, until the subject is exhausted. Then the second proposition should be taken up. It is therefore expected that the discussion this afternoon will be founded on, and confined to this first proposition, viz. "that all religions are founded in ignorance."

Mr. Campbell stated to the Chairman that Mr. Owen wished to be informed when his half hour expired.

Mr. Owen rises with the Christian Baptist in his hand containing the particulars of the challenge and acceptance.

MR, OWEN said

My friends, I am now here to prove that all the religions ever known from the beginning of time till the present hour, have originated in the general and universal ignorance of mankind. I conclude that, to do this at this period would be unnecessary, if men had been taught

to know what manner of beings they were, how they were formed at birth, and how their characters were afterwards produced for them. Had this knowledge been born with man, it would have been impossible that any one of these religions could have existed for one hour. I shall endeavor to show that man is a being entirely different from what he has been supposed to be by any religion ever invented, and that none of these religions apply in any degree to a being formed as man is. And to prove this we require the aid of no authority derived from testimony from the darkest ages of ignorance, from a period of the world when no reliance can be placed upon any doubtful testimony. We have on the contrary, only to appeal to ourselves and the facts which exist here at this moment, which exist wherever human beings can be found. I have stated as a fundamental law of human nature that man, at birth, is ignorant of every thing relative to his own organization-that he has not been permitted to create any part of his faculties, qualities or powers, physical or mental. Now if we are so formed that we have not any kind of will or control in the formation of ourselves; of our physical propensities; of our intellectual faculties and qualities; surely we cannot be held responsible for what they have been made for us. How can an infant be made responsible for that of which it was entirely ignorant? Any religion, therefore, which pre-supposes man bad by nature, must surely be founded in utter ignorance of human nature. I do not imagine it to be necessary to take up much of your time in proving that an infant at birth is quite incapable of knowing any thing about his organization or natural capabilities. And yet his character and conduct proceed essentially from them; they are the only foundation of his virtues and vices.— Over the formation of these, however, he has had no control, nor in the forming of any thing that belongs to himself No being, therefore, so created can ever be made to become responsible for his nature. It is said that there is a difference between men-and this is true; for some are evidently created superior and some inferior in certain natural qualities; but whether inferior or superior, they were not designed or executed by the individuals possessing them, and they cannot therefore, deserve merit or demerit for having them, or be made, without great injustice, responsible for them. Every parent, and every individual who has the power of observation, know that there are no two persons born precisely alike; that there is almost every kind of variety in the formation of the human being at birth. They know also that the individuals themselves could not make the smallest part of this difference, that the children could have no influence whatever in giving to themselves what are called good or bad, or superior or inferior qualities. Let us suppose two infants, one the best, and one the worst, in nature. As neither could make himself, what are we to say respecting each? shall we praise the one and blame the other? shall we make each responsible for the conduct that must flow from these two different organizations, if left to themselves without culture? I repeat, did either infant make his propensities weak or strong, superior or inferior? If not, if there ought to be any difference in our

conduct towards these infants as they grow to maturity, it ought to be shown in our greater commiseration for the inferior; this ought to be the feeling which all should possess, and which all will possess when they shall understand what manner of beings they are. If one of our species be made inferior to the other, it is our duty and our interest not only to commiserate him, but to endeavor to remedy the defect of his nature; and when we shall know ourselves we shall so act, because no other conduct will appear to us to be rational. Well, then, if the infant at birth did not make himself, and if the difference discoverable between infants was not made by themselves, surely we cannot say that the infant is responsible either for the one or the other. I feel it unnecessary to take more time to prove the truth of these two laws or the obvious deductions which every one who reflects must draw from them. And if these things be as I have stated, all religions are founded in error, for their dogmas are in direct opposition to these self-evident truths and the deductions made from them.These laws of our nature, then, must be erroneous or all religions are untrue and founded in ignorance. The third divine law of our nature is, that each individual is placed at birth; without his knowledge or consent, within the influence of circumstances which operate irresistably upon his peculiar organization; and these circumstances thus stamp their own general character upon the infant and the man; yet the influence of these circumstances is modified by the peculiar organization of the individual subjected to them. Now I do not suppose that it will be necessary to enter into any very elaborate arguinent to prove this law.

Is there, I ask, in this varied assembly, composed of individuals born in so many different and distant countries, one individual who can say that he determined the period when he should be born, of whom in what country, and who should be his instructer? Did any of you determine which of all the religions of the world you should be taught to believe, or whether you should be born a prince or a peasant?Whether you should be well or ill educated, according to our ideas of education? Or is there any one here who can suppose it possible that he has ever had the slightest control over any one of these circumstances? Many individuals of this audience have been born in very different parts of Europe and America, and have unavoidably received their local impressions accordingly. But suppose we had all been born amongst a tribe of thoroughgoing Cannibals, would we not, in that case, have been sure to have experienced great delight in killing and eating our enemies? But if we had been taken soon after our birth to India, and been taught to become Gentoos, how many of us could have resisted acquiring a character that would have compelled us to shudder with horror even at the idea of injuring a fly? Probably not one in this assembly-I imagine no one will doubt it; and if true, does it not prove beyond all doubt that we are not the formers of our own character; that we are beings irresponsible for what we areirresponsible for our feelings, opinions and conduct? Does it not prove that we are the effects of causes irresistible in their influence ?