I was remiss in my introduction of Dr. Warnick in that I did not indicate that Dr. Theophilus is also president of the University of Idaho and has taken a very sincere interest in the water resources of the United States, particularly the western part of the United States, and it is my understanding he has been a member of the water resources committee who testified here at the beginning of the hearings, today.

Dr. Warnick, it has been said that research by State universities may not be as economic or as efficient as a more centralized program. Would you like to comment on that?

Dr. WARNICK. Well, I have had the opportunity of observing some of the research activities of the so-called in-house of the Federal agencies, and it is of good quality I think, but I think there is in my own opinion-many times a small university like our own can do things cheaper and many times even more expeditiously.

I may illustrate it by this: Quite frequently some of the Federal agency people come to our university to have us do work. I remember one case a couple or 3 years ago where the Corps of Engineers came to us to have a study made of some metals for sliding gates on dams. They had facilities to do some of this, but we could do it much more expeditiously and even more cheaply than they. I think this is a case of more applied research, but I think normally we can, in many cases, do this.

Mr. WHITE. What is the specific purpose of the University of Idaho's water resource lab at the present time?

Dr. WARNICK. Will you state that again?

Mr. WHITE. What are the specific purposes of the University of Idaho's laboratory, now?

Dr. WARNICK. It isn't exactly a laboratory. It is still just in the state of a committee and the purposes are to provide a greater service to our State in the area of water study.

Right now I am embarrassed in my own State that we do not have a very extensive program at all in water. We have the State agencies that are quite common and that have been spoken of previously here, but we have very, very limited activity in that area. I believe that this is the role of the university, to help train people and interest them in this activity. Certainly I suspect that Idaho has one of the greater undeveloped water potentials of almost any State in the country, and probably the reason we have is the demand for water and the number of humans and with people actively using the water that is less than other States. I think it was a grand opportunity in my case to work in States where we can see and benefit from the mistakes of some States who have been pressed faster than we have in developing their water resources.

Mr. WHITE. Would the program as contemplated by S. 2 inhibit your program?

Dr. WARNICK. It certainly wouldn't. We feel it is almost a necessity to get ourselves going on the level we would like. We would certainly go ahead with our water resources research institute without it, but we are one of those States I think that happens to be in the economic state of development that really requires this funding.

Mr. WHITE. That more or less answers this next question. Why do you need Federal funds for the continuation of your research? Because of the expanding need in the southern part of the State at the present time, and because of the economic situation in the area? Dr. WARNICK. Yes.

Mr. WHITE. Would the University of Idaho be able to implement the programs to be established under S. 2?

Dr. WARNICK. We have done quite a considerable amount of work toward that now. I am sure we have as an aim doing that. I am sure we can do that. As outlined in my testimony, here, we hope we can release some of our people to have a little more time to devote to the specific area. We will maybe be going down to the University of California and crying on their doorstep to get a few people to help us.

Mr. WHITE. This question has been raised before at previous hearings and wasn't discussed to any great extent today, but do you think it is necessary to have a research program in each and every State?

Dr. WARNICK. I certainly cannot argue that it should be in each and every State, but certainly in most of them it is essential because of the uniqueness of the hydrologic conditions, the laws of the State, the need for having it close at hand. The water we are talking about is in the State and the problem is there, and I think you cannot many times take the problem away from its actual source. When you start studying ground water, you can't study ground water in Kentucky for Idaho, even though they both have ground water. Ours is in salt rock and theirs is in some other kind of formation. We find a tremendous difference in behavior of the waters.

Mr. WHITE. Professor Warnick, I certainly want to thank you for your testimony.

Mr. Chairman, I have no further questions.

Mr. JOHNSON. The gentleman from Hawaii, Mr. Gill.

Mr. GILL. Doctor, how many State agencies do you have that are involved in either the research of water resources of the development of water resources?

Dr. WARNICK. I think we have the normal group of them. The basic one is our State department of reclamation which is by law designated to more or less shepherd the waters and also to plan. As presently constituted it probably has a staff of three people, none of them younger than 70 years old. I don't think there is any group very active in research as such in our State, in the State agencies. Our committee has met with the State agencies on several occasions and are trying to unify the idea of needs and we were actually called on to work with our legislature in the last session. I went down and appeared with them.

Mr. GILL. I gather from what you say that the legislature did not rely heavily on the State department of reclamation for water resources information.

Dr. WARNICK. Not at this time.

Mr. GILL. Are there any other States agencies having to do with this general problem?

Dr. WARNICK. The State health department is concerned. The bureau of mines and geology is concerned to some extent, but there again, I am sure that they have very little funding. I think in the

last legislature they were asking for a little funding to get their chance to work in the ground water field.

Mr. GILL. You are prepared to say none of your State agencies which handle problems related to water resources are doing any basic research in the area at the present time?

Dr. WARNICK. Certainly I can say that they are not.

Mr. GILL. Are there any other agencies outside of the university who might be interested in doing such research? You mentioned you had a new college at Pocatello?

Dr. WARNICK. Idaho State University may at some time be interested. Presently they do not have colleges that normally work on this. They have a letters and science division and they have a pharmaceutical school, but no-I think there may be somebody trained in zoology who might be interested and we feel if they have the talents we would welcome the chance to work with them.

We have under our State system a single regency over the university so that does act to coordinate.

Mr. GILL. Are there any Federal agencies in your State doing basic

water research?

Dr. WARNICK. I am sure there are. I think one quite active in this area is the Atomic Energy Commission. As you know, we have a testing station in Idaho and we are interested in what they are doing. Presently they are asking for cooperation with us to lead and sponsor a research and teaching program at Idaho Falls with them and we think this is highly desirable.

Mr. GILL. Do they do water research work?

Dr. WARNICK. Yes, they are doing some rather fine work in the study of movement of ground water. As you well realize, the wastes from some of their reactors is a concern, certainly in our State, where there is a tremendous underground body of water. We are concerned with what they are going to do with it so they are doing some very fine work on that.

Mr. GILL. Whatever work they are doing now is to be coordinated with a future water research program if it is established at your university?

Dr. WARNICK. We are working presently on the movement of ground water where we will cooperate directly with them.

Mr. GILL. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. JOHNSON. The chairman of the full committee.

Mr. ASPINALL. Dr. Warnick, I will just ask this question out of my own curiosity. You referred to the difference in the study of ground waters in Kentucky and Idaho. Do you know of any publication that we have at the present time on the effect of water on all the elements, or the ordinary combination of elements that you find in nature?

Dr. WARNICK. Do you mean the actual effect of various elements on the ground water as it comes out of the aquifer? I am not knowledgeable as to the portions of this that have been attacked. In our community we have a lot of iron in our domestic water supply.

Mr. ASPINALL. You are not nearly as unfortunate as those who have boron in it.

Dr. WARNICK. No. We have professors who come and smell the water and leave.

Mr. JOHNSON. We want to thank you, Dr. Warnick, for your presentation here to the committee on this particular matter. You being the last witness, if there are no further questions, the committee will stand adjourned until 9:45 tomorrow morning.

Mr. GILL. Mr. Chairman, I don't like to be left out of this parade of presidents. I have a letter from the president of the University of Hawaii which indicates an interest in the problem and, if it is agreeable with the chairman, I will submit it.

Mr. JOHNSON. We will have other statements to put in tomorrow. We can put it in now, if you prefer.

Mr. GILL. You can put it in now, if you want.

Mr. JOHNSON. The record will show this particular letter from the University of Hawaii as received by the committee, as a part of the record.

Mr. GILL. Thank you.

(The document referred to follows:)

Hon. THOMAS P. GILL,

UNIVERSITY OF HAWAII, Honolulu, Hawaii, September 18, 1963.

Congressman from Hawaii, New House Office Building, Washington, D.C. DEAR TOM: It occurred to me that it might be helpful if I could pass on some of the thinking of our faculty which leads us to hope that the Senate-passed water resources research bill S. 2 will become law. Perhaps you may find it useful for the hearing in the House Committee on Interior and Insular Affairs, scheduled for September 30 and October 1.

The economic growth of the State of Hawaii has been thus far made in large measure possible through the continual modification and expansion of water resources development. Problems of locating, analyzing, and conserving water supplies arise continually. Needs for water resources research are pressing, and unique situations make local research essential. This has been documented by governmental agencies and private organizations.

The university is pleased to have had faculty members contributing significant research of this sort. Recently the development of the university has witnessed an increased number of personnel capable of and interested in conducting quality research in what is essentially a multidisciplinary field.

We have not, however, been able to conduct the water research which we would like to, and Dean Holmes has put it well in saying that this is not because of lack of interest or problems, but because of the limitation on funds.

The university has a committee on water resources research, consisting of members both from the campus and off the campus, including individuals concerned with engineering, public health, agriculture. the geosciences; hydraulicians, hydrologist-geologist, geophysicist, agronomist, sanitary scientist, and the biomedical scientist. This committee recently summarized Hawaii's resource research efforts over the past 5 to 6 years confirming our guess that far too little research efforts have been expended in comparison with the size of the problem. The committee has unanimously recommended additional resources including funding be developed and a permanent research center in this area be established at the University of Hawaii. The committee is also completing an annotated listing of major deficient areas in Hawaii water resources research which are in need of intensified attention.

We shall be happy to supply you copies of the inventory and listings upon your request.

We are encouraged by your support of this bill and wish to express our firm belief in its benefits.

Sincerely yours,

THOMAS H. HAMILTON, President.

Mr. JOHNSON. If there is no further business, the committee will stand adjourned until tomorrow morning at 9:45.

(Whereupon, at 5 p.m., the subcommittee adjourned to reconvene at 9:45 a.m., Tuesday, October 1, 1963.)

WATER RESOURCES RESEARCH CENTER

TUESDAY, OCTOBER 1, 1963

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES,

SUBCOMMITTEE ON IRRIGATION AND RECLAMATION

OF THE COMMITTEE ON INTERIOR AND INSULAR AFFAIRS,

Washington, D.C.

The subcommittee met at 9:45 a.m., in room 1324, Longworth House Office Building, Hon. Wayne N. Aspinall (acting chairman of the subcommittee) presiding.

Mr. ASPINALL. The Subcommittee on Irrigation and Reclamation will now be in session for further consideration of S. 2 and similar House bills.

The first witness this morning will be Dr. Robert O. Vernon, Association of American State Geologists, State geologist of Florida and water cooperators in various other States.

Before the committee started its session this morning, our colleague, Mr. Sikes, of Florida, introduced Dr. Vernon to me and suggested that they have only had three State geologists in Florida; the first served 16 years; the second served 32 years, and Dr. Vernon is now going to serve double that time.

In other words, he is serving the people of Florida and has been recognized by them.

Dr. Vernon, will you take the witness table and I will let our colleague, Mr. Haley, say anything he wishes to.

Mr. HALEY. Mr. Chairman, and members of the committee, we are very happy to have the good doctor with us this morning.

I know that he appreciates being first on the list this morning so that he can get back to enjoy the State of Florida.

With his tenure of office we get a good man and we intend to keep him there. The doctor is rather new on the job. He has only been there a few years but I hope he will serve 30 or 40 years. We want to keep him there. People live longer in Florida than anywhere else and, Doctor, we are glad to have you.

STATEMENT OF DR. ROBERT O. VERNON, ASSOCIATION OF AMERICAN STATE GEOLOGISTS, STATE GEOLOGIST OF FLORIDA AND WATER COOPERATORS IN VARIOUS OTHER STATES; ACCOMPANIED BY DR. JOE PEOPLES, OF CONNECTICUT

Dr. VERNON. Thank you, Mr. Aspinall, and my good friend, Mr. Haley and Mr. Johnson. I feel that I cannot address the committee as a whole in that way since there are so few.

I am delighted to be here and I hope I can live up to these accolades. I would like to introduce an associate from the American Association of State Geologists, Dr. Joe Peoples from Connecticut.