The two programs, however, serve different purposes and have different economic effects in all areas, whether they be lead-zinc mining areas or other areas. The accelerated public works program has largely a near-term economic impact and the employment data are therefore reported for jobs created on the public works themselves, whereas the area redevelopment program has mainly a long-term impact, and the employment data are projected ahead to show the work that is expected to follow the completion of the projects.

Local areas which have accelerated public works projects that strengthen their current economic positions may also strengthen their longer-term positions when they can submit projects that qualify for securing assistance under the Area Redevelopment Act. The goal for all these is some assurance of a stable economic growth.

In summary, the Area Redevelopment Act provides loans for industrial-commercial projects; loans and grants for construction of public facilities; technical assistance; and occupational training and retraining.

Of the 32 lead-zinc producing counties designated under the program 28 have submitted overall economic development programs, and 26 of these have been approved. By June 2, 7 loans and grant projects had been approved, amounting to a total expenditure of over $3 million, which will provide an estimated 840 jobs when in operation.

In addition, an important technical assistance project for investigation of a new process in the lead-zinc industry has been approved for Colorado.

The accelerated public works program provides grant assistance for the construction of public works in redevelopment and public works areas. A total of 42 lead-zinc counties are eligible to participate in this program.

Up to the middle of May a total of 168 accelerated public works projects had been approved, involving Federal financing of $12,533,000. It is estimated that these projects will provide 15,532 onsite

man-months of work.

(b) Let me turn now to the more general industrial, marketing, and economic services of the Department. Several of them provide indirect help to the lead and zinc industries by fostering the growth of industries which are consumers of these metals.

Reports and studies of specific industries using lead and zinc, published by the Business and Defense Services Administration, provide a better understanding of their problems and prospects.

Included in the industries scheduled for study in depth-in what we call industry growth studies-and I might say that these studies are new, having been started this year in the Business and Defense Services Administration-are the motor vehicle industry, which is a major consumer of products made of lead and zinc; the storage battery industry, a major market for lead; and the steel industry, which uses large quantities of zinc in galvanizing sheet, wire, and pipe.

Included as subjects of industry outlook reports, made annually, are not only the lead and zinc industries but also all other major manufacturing industries, many of which, in addition to those mentioned above, use lead and zinc in various products and in varying quantities.

Export promotion activities conducted by the Bureau of International Commerce and by BDSA likewise can provide benefits to the lead and zinc industries through increasing trade in manufactured products containing these metals.

These operations include the dissemination of information on specific trade and sales opportunities, the preparation of export potential studies on particular end products, the displaying of U.S.-made products at trade fairs and trade centers abroad, and sending trade missions abroad to stimulate sales of U.S. products.

The removal of foreign tariff and nontariff trade barriers has also been the subject of intensive work by BDSA and BIC. Meetings are being held with many industries to identify these trade barriers for subsequent intergovernmental negotiations aimed at their removal. Among the industries consuming lead and zinc which have been consulted to date are the automotive, appliance, and brass industries. I might say that I have attended, I think every one of these meetings, and we are acquiring a considerable amount of new information which will be very useful indeed to our negotiators in opening up trade opportunities for U.S. industry abroad.

The Department is also concerned with various phases of defense and mobilization matters. With respect to the disposal of the excess from Government stockpiles, BDSA, as the agent of the Office of Emergency Planning and in cooperation with other interested agencies, such as Interior, is advising on the development of an orderly disposal program, with the aim of minimizing the impact on industries involved.

Finally, the Department provides economic and industrial information and advisory services to U.S. delegations to international organizations concerned with the lead and zinc industries, particularly the International Lead-Zinc Study Group and the Nonferrous Metals Committee of the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development.

This, Mr. Chairman, completes the prepared statement. I would be glad to try to answer any questions that I can. I also have a few members of my staff with me who have participated more directly in some of these activities to help answer questions.

I might state in that regard that in BDSA we try to cover, try to acquire knowledge about, try to assist 425 four-digit code manufacturing industries and 140 in the distribution field.

So you can excuse an administrator of the agency who may not have all of the intimate details of each of the industries.

Mr. WHITE. I would like to thank you, Mr. Goldy, for your very fine statement. I have a question or two that I would like to direct to you. Your statement presents a very glowing picture of your activities so far as ARA and APW is concerned.

Listening to you read it, it would seem that we have solved many of the unemployment problems that we have in the lead-zine area. However, I happen to be familiar with some of these APW projects in Idaho, retraining projects. The first question I would like to direct to you is on the APW figures which you include in the statement. Do they include the Forest Service, Bureau of Land Management, and Indian projects conducted in the area?

Mr. GOLDY. Yes, sir; they would include those.

Mr. WHITE. Do I interpret you to say that these projects, you feel, will have a residual effect after their completion?

Mr. GOLDY. These projects are supposed to have some long-term benefits as well as serving to alleviate the immediate problem of unemployment.

Mr. WHITE. You feel that trails and picnic grounds, forest access roads-well, I can see, perhaps, forest access roads figuring into this. I was wondering about some of the other projects that are included. You feel that they will have a residual benefit for the industry concerned that we are talking about here today?

Mr. GOLDY. If I may confine myself to the ones you mentioned, as you know, coming out of the lumber industry myself, I feel that the access roads are particularly helpful and useful as a long-term investment in the development of the area.

I think they are particularly needed in the forested areas, and particularly in the Pacific Northwest where there are many areas yet untapped, and timber that is not being harvested because of the lack of roads. But with respect to trails and picnic areas or recreation areas, assuming that these are of the kind that contribute to camping and fishing and recreational use, I would say very definitely they would contribute to the long-term development of the area.

I just returned yesterday from being in the State of Oregon, and I know from personal observation that the fishing areas and the recreational areas are being subjected even at this early time in the year, to tremendous concentrations and visitations. This is one of our problems, particularly as the highways are completed across the country and as more and more of our citizens from the more congested parts of the country visit the scenic attractions of areas like Utah, California, Oregon, Washington, and Idaho. It means we will need more recreation areas and will have to spread out through

the forests.

There is too much concentration of use in certain areas which have already been developed.

Mr. WHITE. I would like to now direct your attention to the U.S. Department of Labor data on unemployment retaining in lead-zinc mining, employment in lead-zinc mining. Do you have a copy of this? Mr. GOLDY. Yes, sir; I do.

Mr. WHITE. Employment in lead-zine mines, selected States, 195661. You have figures here showing a total in 1956 of 17,459, and 11,163 in 1961. More particularly, in the State of Idaho, we had 2,761 in 1961 and 2,119 in 1956.

I would like to know if your employment figures include those who have been employed or were employed in the lead-zinc mining industry particularly.

Mr. GOLDY. My understanding is that these are figures of employment, workers in lead-zinc mining, as taken from the unemployment insurance data. Each of the State employment security agencies keeps figures broken down by occupation.

I would assume, based on the source, although this is Labor Department data, and based on workers covered under State unemployment insurance laws, I would certainly assume from the way this table is put together that we are talking about workers who were or who had been engaged in lead-zinc mining.

I think there is a representative of the Labor Department here and you may wish to have him comment and clarify this point. But that would be my understanding.

Mr. WHITE. There is one other discrepancy noted in the figures that were presented to the Tariff Commission. They showed in 1961, 9,312 people were employed in the lead-zinc industry, and you show 11,163.

Mr. GOLDY. I ought to say that because of the fact that this material was submitted to the committee by the Labor Department, I have not probed personally and deeply into exactly how they prepared the figures or what these discrepancies might be.

On the figures contained in here, both with respect to the employment and unemployment, and also the data on training under the Office of Manpower and Training of the Labor Department, I would like to suggest, Mr. Chairman, that the clarification of it be directed to the Labor Department because we don't have the intimate details except as we have read this report ourselves.

Mr. WHITE. Then you do not have any information as to the number of people that are involved in the manpower training program? Mr. GOLDY. NO. Only as it is reported in here. They do have an area-by-area report on their training programs. But this was prepared by them and submitted directly to the committee. Therefore, we in the Commerce Department did not, in effect, get into this. This program is within the jurisdiction of the Labor Department.

Mr. WHITE. I realize it is, sir, and I realize, too, that you have a certain responsibility in this area. I was wondering if you would care to comment on whether these people that are in these retraining programs are people that were involved in the lead-zinc industry.

Mr. GOLDY. I might ask Mr. Reckord if he knows. I would not know offhand how many of those taking training in the lead-zinc areas were individuals who previously had actually been involved in mining lead and zinc.

Mr. RECKORD. I do not have this information. Our roles and our training program would involve all people unemployed who might wish to be retrained. This would, of course, include unemployed miners.

Mr. WHITE. I believe that many of these people in the training programs have not been miners as such, because in my own area, Shoshone County, in northern Idaho, most of the training programs have been for clerks, stenographers, and practical nurses.

I don't think it has particularly benefited the mining industry, as such, except perhaps their wives or children. The miners themselves are looking for employment in other areas. I don't say that there could not be a retraining program developed so that their skills could be changed to some other area.

Mr. GOLDY. I agree with you about the statement. The training is designed to meet the opportunities in an area, and when the opportunities are in clerical type jobs it is not going to help much in terms of hard-rock miners.

But if you would like, I would be very happy to attempt to obtain this data if the, Labor Department has it. I might explain that even with respect to the ARA training programs, the actual administration of it is in the Labor Department, in the Health, Education, and

Welfare Department, and as is the case of most of the training programs other agencies of Government carry out different portions of it. The Labor Department handles this part of it. The Labor Department would be the only ones having the data indicating the previous occupations from which the trainees came.

Mr. WHITE. Did the Commerce Department previously maintain its own statistics on unemployment and employment in the lead-zinc industry?

Mr. GOLDY. Not to my knowledge, except as it did the census of unemployment, the decennial census. Even with respect to the monthly unemployment report that the Commerce Department comes up with, which is done by the Bureau of the Census, I don't think it goes into an occupational breakdown because the sample is too small.

I think it is an overall report. I think those figures basically on unemployment by occupation are figures which are derived, except for the decennial census, figures derived from the Labor Department data and more particularly from the employment security agencies of the States.

Mr. WHITE. Is there any way that we could determine total numbers of miners that were in the industry and the total number that are not employed at present so that we could make a comparison of the number of people displaced from employment in this industry? Mr. GOLDY. My judgment would be, Mr. Chairman, that an estimate could be made. The Labor Department would have to ask its affiliated State employment security agencies to do the job. I think they would be the ones who would be most capable of coming up with that estimate, based on the statistics.

Mr. WHITE. Would it be proper to make such a request of you? Mr. GOLDY. I would be happy to pass that on to the Department. It may be that I will come back to you and suggest that you back it up with a letter. I will be glad to consult with them. I am quite sure if it is feasible to do so, they will do it.

Mr. WHITE. If we can get such a report, I think it should be included in the record at this point. Without objection, it will be included.

Hearing no objection, it is so ordered.

(Mr. Goldy subsequently advised the committee as follows:)

We have conferred with the Department of Labor in regard to available data on the number of persons that have been employed in lead-zinc mines, the number of workers that are unemployed, and the number of trainees that are from the lead-zinc industry. They have supplied a tabulation of the average annual employment in the mines since 1951 of the workers covered under State unemployment insurance laws. (This tabulation appears below.) They inform us that all the other available information on the subjects is covered in their statement to the subcommittee, which was made a part of the record after my testimony was presented.' They state that it is not possible to determine what proportion of the unemployed is represented by unemployed lead and zinc workers and that data are not available on the number of workers from the lead-zinc industry who are benefiting or have benefited from retraining programs. However, they are inaugurating a system of data collection which should enable them to obtain an indication of the industry of last employment of trainees at some time in the future.

1 See p. 179 for additional data requested by committee from the Secretary of Labor.