Dr. TAYLOR. If you had 50 units instead of 15 would your lease still be a dollar?

Mr. ZAPROWSKI. I am not in a position to say that. I would say in my own opinion it might be. I contemplate, I sincerely hope, putting up some more units on the additional ground and I suppose my taxes will be based on that. Whether it will be or not, I do not know.

Dr. TAYLOR. Do you anticipate the motel business will be enhanced as the result of this big project?

Mr. ZAPROWSKI. I sure do. I sure do. Yes, sir; I think the whole area is going to benefit from this, and I spoke to George here, and I said:

George, if the Federal Government said today they were not going to build this dam, I will bet you a hundred dollars to a doughnut you would be right down in Washington saying, 'You put it there'."

I know George well enough so I can tell him that. This is just going to be the greatest thing that ever happened out here, and I think all of us in this room today should say a prayer of thanks because it is coming here.

But I do not think the Federal Government should buy a 4,000-acre lake and make it private. I think that lake should be made for everybody. If you gentlemen from California, from Florida, from Kansas, or wherever you are from should come down here, you should be able to use it the same as Mr. Heron or Mr. Williams or Mr. Billy or any of the rest of the people. I think this is the nicest thing that could have happened in this area.

Dr. TAYLOR. Thank you very much.

Mr. HALEY. Thank you very much, sir. (Discussion off the record.)

Mr. HALEY. Back on the record.

The subcommittee will stand in recess until 2 o'clock this afternoon. (Whereupon, at 12:30 p.m., the subcommittee recessed, to reconvene at 2 p.m., the same day, Saturday, May 18.)

AFTERNOON SESSION

Mr. HALEY. The committee will be in order.

First, Dr. Taylor, will you call the next witness, please?
Dr. TAYLOR. Mr. Leslie Halford.

STATEMENT OF LESLIE HALFORD, SALAMANCA, N.Y.

Mr. HALFORD. Mr. Chairman and members of the committee, my name is Leslie Halford, supervisor, town of Salamanca.

Mr. HALEY. You may be seated, sir, and we will be glad to hear from you.

Mr. HALFORD. First I would also like to mention I am chairman of the Conservation, Fish, and Game Committee, Cattaraugus County Board of Supervisors. I am councilman from Cattaraugus County to the State of New York on fish and game. I am the supervisor member of the fish and wildlife management program under the Fish and Wildlife Management Act of the State of New York for five western counties.

First I would like to speak as John Public, taxpayer and sports

man.

When the Kinzua Dam first came to the point where we thought we were going to have it, I, as a sportsman, vehemently opposed the construction of the project and was very instrumental in preparing the resolution which I had the Federated Sportsmen's Clubs of Cattaraugus County adopt and present to the county board opposing the Kinzua construction, and the county board adopted the resolution. I am perhaps more known as a sportsman than as a supervisor in this area, although I have been supervisor for several terms. But here I speak as a sportsman.

As a supervisor, the town of Salamanca is a small town bordering the Indian reservation. The area between the city of Salamanca and the Breeze Run area is entirely within our town.

As previously stated, the Indian reservation is a nontaxpaying unit. They have no fire protection. That is my main object in being here. The town of Salamanca is a small town. We formed a fire protection district to protect the townspeople and we thought this would include the reservation. When we presented our contract to the State, we found that we could not include the reservation area and had to change our contract, the wording of it.

The town has a contract with the village of Little Valley and the Salamanca Fire Department on a fixed-fee basis plus $50 a call. Fifty dollars is a drop in the bucket compared to the millions we are talking about in the construction of the Kinzua Dam.

We feel some provision should be made so the Indians could have proper fire protection within their area. I understand that in our town there is to be a sizable development in the way of a home and community center. We welcome this to the town. There will have to be fire protection for it. The only way we can do it is to go behind the barn and come up with some protection. After I had to delete the Indian reservation from the protection district, some of my good friends on the reservation and neighbors felt I had done them an injustice. They are very, very good friends of mine and I have been with them for 40 years. So we got behind the barn and got a verbal agreement with the fire companies to protect the Indians.

That is one thing I would like to see corrected so that we can either give them fire protection or have them have fire protection of their own. The entire towns on the reservation, I think, are under the same status.

Next, I speak of the loss of revenue in the Kinzua Dam to our town. The Pennsylvania Railroad, a sizable tax contributor to our town, is now abandoned. The rails and ties and whatever is still in, which is taxable will be removed in the very near future.

As you know, it costs so much to operate a town, even though small. If we lose this revenue it has to come from the people of the town. It is a small town, a poor farming area, I would say two progressive farms in the whole town. Most of it is wasteland, and a town with a population of 480 people only.

That is the extent of my statement.

Mr. HALEY. Thank you very much, Mr. Halford. Does any member of the committee have any questions? The gentleman from Ohio, Mr. Abele.

Mr. ABELE. Just since I have been here a couple of days, it is my understanding that Little Valley is the county seat; is that right? Mr. HALFORD. Yes, sir.

Mr. ABELE. What is the population of Little Valley?

Mr. HALFORD. I am at a loss. I am told 2,500. It is a small village, a couple of thousand.

Mr. ABELE. Is it right in the center of the county?

Mr. HALFORD. Quite the center of the county; yes, sir.

Mr. ABELE. That is probably what determined the county seat being there.

Mr. HALFORD. Yes, sir. The part of our town-our town borders the city of Salamanca and is distributed much around it, and although Little Valley is 9 miles from the city of Salamanca, it is nearer to parts of our town than the city of Salamanca Fire Department. For that reason we have contracts with the city of Salamanca and the village of Little Valley for fire protection within the town.

Mr. ABELE. That is all, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. HALEY. Mr. Martin?

Mr. MARTIN. No questions.

Mr. HALEY. Thank you very much.

Call the next witness, Dr. Taylor.

Dr. TAYLOR. Did Mr. Howard Wilson come?

STATEMENT OF EDNA VAN AERMAN, ALLEGANY, N.Y.

Mrs. VAN AERMAN. My name is Edna Van Aerman, Ten Mile, Allegany, N.Y. That is what I want to say.

I am in favor of this H.R. 1794 bill. I think there is not enough money in the world to compensate the Senecas for the loss of their homes and property, but I feel we can be helped in other ways.

A program for land development, clearing land, draining swamps, and so forth, and a business loan for motels, those are ways we can be helped; lunch stands, Tastee Freez stands, and so forth, and instructions to operate these enterprises.

Mr. HALEY. Does that complete your statement?

Mrs. VAN AERMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. HALEY. Does any member of the committee have any questions? The gentleman from Ohio.

Mr. ABELE. No questions.

Mr. HALEY. Thank you very much.

Mrs. VAN AERMAN. Thank

you.

Mr. HALEY. Call the next witness, Dr. Taylor.

Dr. TAYLOR. Kenneth Van Aerman.

STATEMENT OF KENNETH VAN AERMAN, SALAMANCA, N.Y.

Mr. VAN AERMAN. My name is Kenneth Van Aerman. I live in Salamanca, N.Y. I am a member of the Seneca Nation of Indians. Mr. HALEY. Have a seat and you may proceed.

Mr. VAN AERMAN. I am for acquiring new land for the Seneca Nation as a whole because we are losing 10,000 acres of property.

There is a new decision about how many acres that we actually need, but there are arguments against it and there are plenty of arguments for it.

But the acquiring of new land would help the Seneca Nation as a whole. And small business loans there should be, a loan setup for small business loans in a period of, say, 30 or 40 years, or maybe longer, to benefit the Seneca Nation, to help them operate businesses or else individual Indians to operate their own businesses. And this should be money set up in a fund for education, for retraining Indians that do not have trades, or help them learn other occupations. That is all I have to say.

Mr. HALEY. What is your age?

Mr. VAN AERMAN. I am 27 years old.

Mr. HALEY. Were you able to complete high school?

Mr. VAN AERMAN. Yes; I completed high school in the Army. Mr. HALEY. In the Army?

Mr. VAN AERMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. HALEY. No college?

Mr. VAN AERMAN. No, sir.

Mr. HALEY. Had you had-this is merely speculative-had you had an opportunity to obtain a higher education you would certainly have attempted to do it, would you not?

Mr. VAN AERMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. HALEY. Does any member of the committee have any questions? Dr. TAYLOR. Do you have a trade at the present time?

Mr. VAN AERMAN. Yes, sir. I am a painter. I do structural steel, I do buildings, I do anything, painting, interior decorating, or structural.

Dr. TAYLOR. If you could get a small business loan now-were you speaking for yourself when you said you would like to get a small business loan-were you speaking for yourself or the general members?

Mr. VAN AERMAN. There are plenty of other Indians that could have businesses of their own on the reservation and off the reservation.

Dr. TAYLOR. Did you have in mind business loans outside of the money that would be granted or given to the nation as a result of the construction of this project?

Mr. VAN AERMAN. Yes, there should be a fund set up for the nation and for individuals.

Dr. TAYLOR. You mean from the fund?

Mr. VAN AERMAN. Yes.

Dr. TAYLOR. From the fund.

Mr. VAN AERMAN. For everybody to go into business. Some people will and some won't, but the Seneca Nation needs money to operate recreation resources and for small business, for motels and hotels and what have you.

Dr. TAYLOR. Has the nation given consideration to such a project as far as you know?

Mr. VAN AERMAN. I do not know. That is what I would like to see in the bill.

Dr. TAYLOR. Thank you.

Mr. HALEY. Thank you, Mr. Van Aerman.

Mr. VAN AERMAN. Thank you.

Mr. HALEY. Call the next witness, Dr. Taylor.

Dr. TAYLOR. Mr. Heron, president of the Seneca Nation.

STATEMENT OF GEORGE D. HERON, PRESIDENT, SENECA NATION, SALAMANCA, N.Y.

Mr. HERON. My name is George E. Heron, president of the Seneca Nation.

Mr. HALEY. You may be seated, sir.

Mr. HERON. Thank you.

Mr. HALEY. And we will be glad to hear from you.

Mr. HERON. Mr. Chairman and members of the committee, first I would like to express my thanks to Mr. Haley for the many kind words he spoke this morning in our behalf. It is most heartening to the Senecas at this time.

I should also like to inform this committee on the record of what a taxpayer is. Only recently I and Mrs. Heron remitted a check to the U.S. Government for $952 in Federal income taxes. And the State of New York also takes a chunk of our earnings, to say nothing of the many excise and other taxes that we pay on cigarettes and gasoline and luxuries.

Now where we draw the line between taxpayers and nontaxpayers, I do not know because I have heard testimony here this morning that there were no taxpayers here. Looking over the faces, I see they are all taxpayers. I would like that made clear for the record, that we Senecas are all taxpayers.

Second, I take issue with the remarks made by Mr. Zaprowski. I think this committee ought to know that Mr. Zaprowski was an employee of the Corps of Engineers. He runs a motel and his best customers are the Corps of Engineers, and I have known him for many, many years, and after all these years I have come to the conclusion that he still has an abysmal ignorance of the mind of a Seneca.

I should also like to state we have not one basket weaver, but we have many, many basket weavers. I probably could pick out 9 or 10 here in this congregation seated here today.

Primarily I guess this committee is here to hear testimony on H.R.. 1794 and I am sorry if I have digressed from the topic which I am supposed to be here discussing.

Mr. HALEY. I would say, Mr. Heron, on this congressional committee we usually allow its members and the people testifying to cover wide latitudes. We do not have any particular set rules on that. We just came up here to hear people talk.

Mr. HERON. Thank you.

We are happy to have been able to tour the reservation area with you yesterday and point out to you our proposed relocation sites and our proposed sites for recreation development.

The Seneca Nation has been working hard these past 2 years. We have borrowed a page from Congress and appointed various small committees to make a detailed study of our needs. During the past 2 years I believe we have appointed a half a dozen or so committees. We have the lieu lands committee, the intangible damage committee, an educational and scholarship committee, housing and relocation committee, and the people who serve on these committees serve without compensation and devote a great deal of their time looking forward to the betterment of the Senecas.

I think we have also helped ourselves in a sense that we are taking advantage of the many new programs offered by Congress, public